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Reverse in Precision?

#1 User is offline   Periiz 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 09:14

I've been thinking about systems with limited openings (Precision is just one example) and I'd like to ask, what a reverse would mean on those systems?

Obviously this depends on the meanings of the opening bids, but assuming a common scheme:
1 any shape forcing (16+?)
1 2+ diamonds
1/ 5+ suit
2 if this shows 5 and a major or always 6 doesn't really matter much to my question, I suppose. For simplicity, assume it always shows 6 and 2 shows the short diamond hand

What would a reverse mean?
One example could be:
1 - 1
2

They could be used for good raises (maybe only 3 card support) and that's fine, or maybe show more extreme shapes. But what do you do on hands that are almost good enough to open 1 but have some type of 5431 shape? Something like
x
KJxx
AKxxx
Kxx

Or maybe
Kxx
KQxx
Axxxx
K

The second one could make things simple with a 1NT opening if that's strong, but I'd be less happy about 1NT with the first one.
Would you reverse on those playing standard? If the answer is yes, maybe you should open a strong club, but there are hands that feels like not quite eneough for 1 but will get lost without a rebid. Another auction, of course, would be
1 - 1NT
2

I'm not even sure if playing limited openings one should keep standard meanings for 1M - 1NT and 1M - 2m, but well, I guess that's another discussion.
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 10:32

The standard meaning of a reverse after a limited opening in Precision is that it shows five or more cards in the first suit, four or more in the second, but fewer than the number of cards in the first, and about 14-15 HCP. IIRC these reverses are not forcing.
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#3 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 12:52

Also I would expect a relatively "pure" hand; 14-15 with very few "wasted" values in the short suits: stiff A is fine, stiff Q, or QJ(x) is not. If only 5=4, then it's unbalanced and really pure.

The biggest plus in Precision is using the initial limited bid to make more specific the second round "uncommon" auctions, and since they're so precise, making more of them non-forcing (partner is captain). Not a reverse, but 1-1NT-F; 3-p is a prime example of being acres ahead of standard bidders.
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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 12:52

Basically this auctions don't exist.

Should show like a 6-5 or something I guess, but basically they don't exist.

If you feel a 5-4 hand is good enough to reverse with, just open it 1C.

If I was going to the trouble of making agreements about such things, I would probably play them as some sort of artificial raise of partners suit. (Splinter? Fragment? Something like that?)

But as someone who plays about 100 hands of Precision a week, I haven't felt the need to make such a natural reverse in at least the last year or so.

I will say that with a traditional 13-15 or 14-16 NT, a lot of the 5-4-2-2s just get opened 1N.
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#5 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 14:57

View Postmycroft, on 2020-September-25, 12:52, said:

Also I would expect a relatively "pure" hand; 14-15 with very few "wasted" values in the short suits: stiff A is fine, stiff Q, or QJ(x) is not. If only 5=4, then it's unbalanced and really pure.

The biggest plus in Precision is using the initial limited bid to make more specific the second round "uncommon" auctions, and since they're so precise, making more of them non-forcing (partner is captain). Not a reverse, but 1-1NT-F; 3-p is a prime example of being acres ahead of standard bidders.

I play that way, but I'm not sure it is standard. IIRC some Precision books just specify maximum 14-15 HCP and don't seem to worry about suit quality. Standard Modern Precision by Daniel Neill shows pretty good playing hands for reverses and jump shifts.
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#6 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 15:13

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-25, 12:52, said:

Basically this auctions don't exist.

Should show like a 6-5 or something I guess, but basically they don't exist.

If you feel a 5-4 hand is good enough to reverse with, just open it 1C.

The problem with opening 1 with 14 (or 15) HCP is that partner will make a game forcing response with 8 HCP and you will usually end up in 3NT when there is no fit, and may have no play for game even if you do have a fit. Partner will also underestimate the relative strengths in competitive auctions and maybe on defense.

AFAIK, every published version of Precision has reverses and jump shifts by opener that show maximum non 1 hands.
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#7 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 17:10

View Postjohnu, on 2020-September-25, 15:13, said:

The problem with opening 1 with 14 (or 15) HCP is that partner will make a game forcing response with 8 HCP and you will usually end up in 3NT when there is no fit, a


Which is why I think that reversing on these 14-15s is such a bad idea to the point where these bids just don't exist. It's not that I think opening 1C on them is GOOD (I'm not advocating for that at all), but if you were to have a hand SO GOOD that you would consider a reverse reasonble...
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#8 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 17:22

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-25, 17:10, said:

Which is why I think that reversing on these 14-15s is such a bad idea to the point where these bids just don't exist. It's not that I think opening 1C on them is GOOD (I'm not advocating for that at all), but if you were to have a hand SO GOOD that you would consider a reverse reasonble...

The point of Precision reverses (and jump shifts) is that they are not forcing at all, and certainly not forcing to game. They just clarify opener's strength and distribution because there is a big difference between a 10-11 HCP hand and a 14-15 HCP hand.
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#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-September-25, 17:50

This is one of the reasons why I prefer a Polish style 1/1M openings with an upper limit of around 17hcp. You can use the rebids more efficiently in that setup and are still limited enough to gain some benefit from it.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#10 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 02:59

Sam and I play a different opening structure (2 showing 6+ and 10-15, 1 basically denies five-card major or six-card minor but includes hands short in diamonds like 4414 and 4315) so this will be a factor in our choices.

We use the reverses and jumps as follows:

1-1-2 (and 1-1-2!) are good raises to two of a major, normally either 4-card support with a side singleton and 11-13 or 3-card support with a side singleton and 13-15. The direct 2M raise is normally balanced (or 3-card support with side singleton and not max).
1-1-2NT (and 1-1-2) are four-card raises with a side void (any strength).
1-1-3/3/3 and 1-1-2NT/3/3 are four-card raises with 13-15 and a specific singleton (we can show all three singletons, keeping in mind that singleton diamond is possible in our system).
1-1M-3 is natural with 6-5 in the minors and a non-minimum (this is one exception to 1 denying a 6-minor).
We don't have meanings for jump rebids above three of responder's major (we don't think such rebids really make sense given the strength and shape limits of the 1 opening).

Reverse into 2 after opening 1 is artificial and shows 5 and a 6+minor. Rebid of 2NT after opening 1 shows 5 and 6. Rebid of 2NT after opening 1 shows 5 and a 6+minor. Jump to 3m after opening 1M (or 1...3) show 6 in the suit opened an 5+ in the second suit. Jump rebid of 3M shows a 7-card suit (with 6-card suit hands good enough for a jump rebid generally open 1, but hands with a 7-card suit and around 13-14 points do not).
Adam W. Meyerson
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 06:57

Periiz, just to mention, as you are new here, that Adam is one of the absolutely top bidding theorists on BBF so if your system is close enough to his for it to be appropriate, I very much advise to pay attention to the post above this one and take away from it what works for you.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#12 User is offline   Periiz 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 18:57

View Postawm, on 2020-September-26, 02:59, said:

Sam and I play a different opening structure (2 showing 6+ and 10-15, 1 basically denies five-card major or six-card minor but includes hands short in diamonds like 4414 and 4315) so this will be a factor in our choices.


I appreciate the very detailed response, Adam. I gonna guess you are using those 2m openings denying a 4 card major? Maybe 5-4 in the minors included?
Anyways, having different opening bids sure give a lot of possibilities for different set of rebids! The hands I showed would be bid by opening 1 and then either making a good raise (when partner shows hearts) or showing your minor (when partner shows spades), which would in turn imply 4 hearts (would it really?)?

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-September-26, 06:57, said:

Periiz, just to mention, as you are new here, that Adam is one of the absolutely top bidding theorists on BBF so if your system is close enough to his for it to be appropriate, I very much advise to pay attention to the post above this one and take away from it what works for you.


I'll definitely keep that in mind :P
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#13 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2020-September-27, 03:51

For what it's worth, our 2-minor openings do not deny a four-card major and they do guarantee a six-card suit (at least in 1st/2nd seat).

We have found that intermediate two bids which show six-card suits are quite effective in competition, and the certainty of opener holding six allows us to bid some light 3nt games and also gives us some safety in 3m if we need to fish for major suit fits. It's true that we occasionally miss a 4-4 major fit on a non-game hand, but these can also work out in our favor (make it harder for opponents to find their fit in the other major, we sometimes get to play 2m when other tables get overboard to 4M, etc). Using 2m this way also prevents 1 from becoming a total "garbage bag" of random hands; our 1 is actually quite tightly defined. It's a weak notrump about 2/3 of the time, and otherwise it's almost always a three-suited hand (including 5431 without a five-card major) which is usually one card away from balanced (4450/4405 is possible but this is really rare, as are 5+/5+ minors hands). I know it seems counterintuitive to people used to a "semi-natural" diamond, but this combination of openings leaves us quite well prepared for competitive auctions (and with quite good follow-ups in non-competitive auctions).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-September-27, 08:00

FWIW, Steve Male and I experimented with a Gazzilli variations on Perliz idea -- for normal methods (as well as Precision). For example:
1B - 1R -??
  • 2/3/4R (Raise of responder's suit ) = 4 card support.
  • 1NT = Catch-all. Might be short in R (responder's suit)
  • 2NT = ART Good hand 6+ B (Opening bid suit) 0-2 R (Responder's suit)
  • New suit (not a reverse) = NAT normal
  • Jump in a new suit = SPL 4 card support for R (Responder's suit).
  • 2B (Rebid of opener's suit -- not ) = NAT 5+ cards with 3-card support.
  • 3B (Jump rebid of opener's suit) = NAT 6+ cards with 3-card support.
  • New suit (Reverse) = NAT with 3 card support for B (as suggested by Perliz).
  • 2 = ART F/1 Gazilli. Either 6+ cards in B (Opener's suit) or good hand. Then 2 = ART G/F opposite the latter.

Good for a laugh when opponents discovered that a 2 rebid was Gazzilli, even after a 1 opener. A bit unwieldy but we found lot's of 3-5 fits.
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