BBO Discussion Forums: When your hand contributes negative tricks - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

When your hand contributes negative tricks I should have passed a forcing bid

#21 User is offline   TylerE 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,760
  • Joined: 2006-January-30

Posted 2020-September-24, 20:30

View Postnige1, on 2020-September-24, 18:34, said:

In the UK, Benjamin is popular solution ...


Really? I thought that was considered a bit prehistoric even by most ACOL pairs these days. Am I wrong?

It certainly seems bad to give up not just one but TWO bids to poorly describe low frequency hand types.
0

#22 User is online   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,833
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-September-24, 21:15

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-September-24, 18:02, said:

In this auction, 2 was explained as GF. If that's really what it is then passing 3 is not safe.

While 2 says GF, 2 is only forcing to 3. And certainly a 2NT rebid by opener is not forcing in normal systems.
1

#23 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,068
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2020-September-24, 22:25

View Postjohnu, on 2020-September-24, 21:15, said:

While 2 says GF, 2 is only forcing to 3. And certainly a 2NT rebid by opener is not forcing in normal systems.

Yeah, so the GF annotation is apparently wrong. In that case, 3 is presumably nonforcing.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
0

#24 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,666
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-September-25, 06:16

View Postnige1, on 2020-September-24, 18:34, said:

[list][*]2 = ART F/1. After 2 - 2 -, responder can pass opener's rebid with a poor hand.

A common variation is for 2 - 2 to be game forcing and 2 - 2 non-forcing.

As far as "forcing" goes, it is more "forcing if partner has their call". So the most common case of passing a forcing bid I know is the case of a reverse. It is not at all uncommon, especially in a 5 card major system, to respond to a 1m opening with extreme shortage in the minor and nothing in the way of honour strength at all and then pass any rebid. If that rebid is systemically forcing, c'est la vie. The difference in this case is that Opener is absolutely unlimited in terms of their upper bound of strength. In such cases it is almost never a good idea to pass.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#25 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,900
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-September-25, 06:30

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-September-24, 18:02, said:

OK but then "technically forcing" just means non-forcing. There are few natural bids by passed hands that are forcing.

In this auction, 2 was explained as GF. If that's really what it is then passing 3 is not safe. Partner might have something like A-AKxxxx-Ax-AKQJ.


GF is shorthand, it likely isn't GF as 2-2-2N is passable in most systems played these days if 2 can be a bust.

The kind of auction I'm talking about was where a passed hand fourth suits (non GF) and then bids a suit which should be F1 but sometimes gets passed
0

#26 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,204
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-September-25, 08:30

View Postnige1, on 2020-September-24, 18:34, said:

I hope The Possum stays.

He already started a new topic :)
But he seems to have given up on this one, so here is the hand of North:
AQ4 AKQ83 2 KQJ4.
Not a hand I would choose to open 2.
0

#27 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,666
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-September-25, 08:58

View Postpescetom, on 2020-September-25, 08:30, said:

AQ4 AKQ83 2 KQJ4.
Not a hand I would choose to open 2.

Your 2 opening probably has a different meaning from the OP though. Would you open it 2 in Benji, SEF or Forum D? Or 2 playing Strong 2s? Notice here also how the methods played their part - if 2 was an immediate negative then the pair can play the hand there. If 2NT was the second negative after 2, the pair could have played 3. Only with the negatives being 2+3 does the pair end up in 3 on a 5-1 fit. There are certainly some system lessons to be learnt here but precisely which ones you take away are a matter of conjecture.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
1

#28 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,900
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-September-25, 10:33

View Postpescetom, on 2020-September-25, 08:30, said:

He already started a new topic :)
But he seems to have given up on this one, so here is the hand of North:
AQ4 AKQ83 2 KQJ4.
Not a hand I would choose to open 2.


borderline for me, partner isn't going to expect to make game with lots of hands that are nowhere close to a response with flat nothings no better than a couple of jacks.

I probably wouldn't because we play any rebid other than 2N as FG, I think playing something more standard it's really close.
0

#29 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,204
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-September-25, 11:26

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-September-25, 08:58, said:

Your 2 opening probably has a different meaning from the OP though. Would you open it 2 in Benji, SEF or Forum D? Or 2 playing Strong 2s? Notice here also how the methods played their part - if 2 was an immediate negative then the pair can play the hand there. If 2NT was the second negative after 2, the pair could have played 3. Only with the negatives being 2+3 does the pair end up in 3 on a 5-1 fit. There are certainly some system lessons to be learnt here but precisely which ones you take away are a matter of conjecture.


We too play any rebid other than 2NT (or Kokish 2NT) as game forcing, so yes the 2 meaning is different.

I don't have a strong 2 bid, haven't much experience of playing one and I've seen different ways of playing it too. The local old ladies play that a 2NT response is a non-forcing negative and while passing that might not be a disaster (1 down on this layout, like 3), I might as well have opened 2NT in the first place (RA and partner permitting). In the 4-card majors I was taught, the 2NT response was effectively forcing and just denied 5-card or a well honoured minor: now my 3 rebid would be forcing too, so we can't stop below 3 bid by responder and risk going higher. Happy to have a different system with problems of its own.
0

#30 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,059
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, D18; Chapala, D16

Posted 2020-September-25, 12:52

I hate that hand for 2. Two-suiters are bad after 2, pseudo-three-suiters are worse. Having hearts the main suit makes it worse, for those who use 2 as the immediate ultra-negative. Do you bid 3 (forcing?) Do you pass 2 and hope for xx? Fake a 2NT "opener" and hope partner bids Stayman or transfers to spades?

Actually with one partner, where we play Kokish Relay, it's specifically designed to handle this problem: 2-2 (semi-auto); 2-2("forced"); 3 shows this hand, but is GF.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#31 User is offline   AL78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,962
  • Joined: 2019-October-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SE England
  • Interests:Bridge, hiking, cycling, gardening, weight training

Posted 2020-September-25, 13:45

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-24, 20:30, said:

Really? I thought that was considered a bit prehistoric even by most ACOL pairs these days. Am I wrong?


Yes, Benji Acol, is popular at club level in the UK, although the beginners at my club are taught three weak twos.
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users