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What to bid with this passed hand?

#1 User is offline   baabaa 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 13:54

North/South vulnerable. You sit North and are the dealer in MP.

AKTxx
JT
98xx
xx

The bidding goes pass-pass-1-3

What would you bid after this? Would you pass, bid 3 or bid 3?
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#2 User is online   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 15:00

If this isn't a 3 bid (which promises diamond tolerance, btw), I don't know what is.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 15:02

Personally I would err on the the side or caution, especially vulnerable with this 5422 hand. Technically you haven't got a 3 limit raise or 3 bid available. Bidding here just makes life very difficult for your partner especially if the opponents raise to 4. I'd rather let partner re-open than bid here. So pass.
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#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 16:20

What did the diamond show ? I could be on a very sticky wicket opposite a 2443 minimum opener. I'm much more comfortable if playing a weak NT.
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 16:27

What about double, then pass 3d but correct 3h to spades?
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
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#6 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 18:54

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-September-11, 15:02, said:

Personally I would err on the the side or caution, especially vulnerable with this 5422 hand. Technically you haven't got a 3 limit raise or 3 bid available. Bidding here just makes life very difficult for your partner especially if the opponents raise to 4. I'd rather let partner re-open than bid here. So pass.


Partner has

Qx Axx KQJxx xxx

not a strong hand or a particularly distributional one, and pass loses you 6 IMPs (or most of a board at MPs).

True, partner could have

xx Qxx AKxx QJxx

and pass gains you 4 IMPs.

More commonly, partner might have something like

Qxx Qxx AKxx xxx

which is probably a push at IMPs (but a gain for bidding at MPs).

But the +6 IMPs for bidding hands are a bit more common than the -4 IMPs for bidding ones, though maybe less common than the -3 IMPs (-200 vs -110) for bidding hands.

Yeah probably more than half of the time when you bid, you'll go down. But bridge scoring generally rewards mild sacrifices. If you're afraid of going down, you're not going to do well at bridge.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 19:02

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-September-11, 16:20, said:

What did the diamond show ? I could be on a very sticky wicket opposite a 2443 minimum opener. I'm much more comfortable if playing a weak NT.

Yes, IMHO it is problems like this that's the strongest argument for playing weak NT.
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
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#8 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2020-September-11, 22:45

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-September-11, 19:02, said:

Yes, IMHO it is problems like this that's the strongest argument for playing weak NT.


It's why I prefer playing a weak NT.
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#9 User is online   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-September-12, 00:11

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-September-11, 16:27, said:

What about double, then pass 3d but correct 3h to spades?


Id do it with a S more (but Id probably have opened 2S in that case), or a bit more strength (DQ for instance). Or a H more (5341 distribution) but less confidently (to pass 3H). Here, we could possibly end up in a 52 fit at the 3 level, or in 4D, with only half of the deck, red.

Pass and 3D are probably safer calls.
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#10 User is offline   baabaa 

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Posted 2020-September-12, 01:33

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-11, 15:00, said:

If this isn't a 3 bid (which promises diamond tolerance, btw), I don't know what is.


Me and my partner do not have an agreement that you promise tolerance for diamonds here (perhaps we should?).


View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-September-11, 16:20, said:

What did the diamond show ? I could be on a very sticky wicket opposite a 2443 minimum opener. I'm much more comfortable if playing a weak NT.


It usually shows 4+, though we do open 1 with 4432 (with two clubs). 1NT is 15-17 in our system.
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#11 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-September-12, 01:48


BaaBaa "MP. We Vul. What would you bid after this? Would you pass, bid 3 or bid 3?"
++++++++++++++++++++
Deal rotated to make dealer West. I rank
1. 3 = FNJ implies tolerance.
2. 3 = NAT.
3. Pass = NAT
4. X = NEG Dangerous with a doubleton ,

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#12 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-September-12, 02:05

View Postbaabaa, on 2020-September-12, 01:33, said:

Me and my partner do not have an agreement that you promise tolerance for diamonds here (perhaps we should?).

It's not really an agreement, just logic. You're a passed hand, didn't preempt in spades, and are telling your partner you're willing to play at the 4 level even if they're void in spades - you *must* have diamonds.
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#13 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2020-September-12, 04:11

So let's say you held QTxxxx, KJx, Tx, Qx. You decide to pass first round (I would not consider this a preempt under any circumstances, but even if you like living dangerously the vulnerability indicates a clear pass). Does your logic, and shortage in diamonds, mean you should pass again this round? You could swap a small spade for the J if you like and repeat the question.
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-12, 05:42

View PostDavidKok, on 2020-September-12, 04:11, said:

So let's say you held QTxxxx, KJx, Tx, Qx. You decide to pass first round (I would not consider this a preempt under any circumstances, but even if you like living dangerously the vulnerability indicates a clear pass). Does your logic, and shortage in diamonds, mean you should pass again this round? You could swap a small spade for the J if you like and repeat the question.


Auto 2 for us, but not if you play classical. Do you really want to play 3/4 possibly doubled opposite x, xxxx, AQxxx, AJx, you really want to know you're pretty certain to have a fit, even 2344 hands are no bargain in 3. Much better to know you have a fit if you may be forcing partner to the 4 level.

If you're going to play 3 as may not contain diamonds also, 8 to the J and out is a better hand type for this, but he FNJ is then much more frequent.
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#15 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-September-16, 07:48

Sir,
With the given holding as played in Diamonds there are EIGHT losers so my bid is 3.Had I had one more pip in spades and one less in hearts/clubs then 3.THis hand has not enough values to bid 3 and then find playing in 4.Negative double is also ruled out for the same reason.
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#16 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-September-16, 07:48

duplicate hence deleted.
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