[Winstonm]

[QUOTE]I don't understand what layout the jack of spades is better than the low one though

Spoiler

Not a layout at all, Justin, but trying to steer partner in the winning return if he holds the heart K.

What is pard to return if he gets in with the heart king? Does he play me for spade AQ and Club Qx or for Club K9?

Only relevance to the spade J is to get partner off returning spades unless that is the only way to beat it....he has the K and xx of clubs.

Anyway, that's my (perverted) thinking.

WinstonM

This hidden deal is pretty neat....why didn't you guys tell me before? ROFLOL

[PMetsch]

Jlall, on Jun 3 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

I don't understand what layout the jack of spades is better than the low one though

If declarer has

KQ9x
x
8xxx
Qxxx

If you play a low spade then declarer can make 3 spade tricks, but if you play J and duck the next spade, then delarer will make only 2 spade tricks.

[Walddk]

Scoring: IMP

South: 3NT
Lead: C2

---

Here is the full hand. The bidding was:

1♦ - 1♠
2♥ - 2NT
3NT - pass

Trick 1: ♣2, 3, A, 5.

Trick 2: ♣7, 8, J, 10.

Trick 3: ??

After the return of ♣7 West correctly realised that the rest of the clubs would not stand up and was now on a guess as to which major suit king partner had. He switched to a heart which was a disaster on this layout.

Could he have known? Surely not, but the thing is that he didn't have to guess at this point. The return of ♠3!! would give him another go if East didn't have ♠K. Let's assume that the layout had been this:

Scoring: IMP

South: 3NT
Lead: C2

---

Declarer could win dummy's 10 and continue spades to West's ace, and now it's time to switch to a heart. South has no choice; he must take the finesse, and the contract goes down.

Note that ♠3 is the card to return, and not the jack or ace. If you switch to ♠A to see if partner likes it or not, you would just have presented declarer with the contract, and the jack is equally wrong in case East had been out of clubs.

♠3 caters for everything whenever the contract can be defeated. Well done to those of you who found the killing switch!

Roland

[Winstonm]

Roland, a sincere question:

Spoiler

when east gets in with the King of hearts, how does he know with which holding West started unless West attempts to tell him? Of course, partner would have to be really on his toes and always play the K on the J regardless of holdings - but wouldn't it be obvious that West is searching for his entry and may even play the J from AJ - so the play of the King on the J is really not all that hard? If the King holds and East is out of clubs, it shouldn't at that point be difficult for him to know what to do.

Spades AJ3
Clubs KJ92
or
Spades AQ3
Clubs QJ52

Thanks in advance,
WinstonM

[shanbari]

Walddk, on Jun 4 2005, 02:13 AM, said:

... and the jack is equally wrong in case East had been out of clubs.

..

Roland

Roland, i am still not convinced by what you said,
would you please tell me one hand that SJ failded and S3 succceed.

the hand you showed, SJ & S3 seems both work.

the only drawback of SJ is that east may duck it while holding Kxxx.

shan

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE] the hand you showed, SJ & S3 seems both work.

Yes, and this was my contention as well - they both work but one gives partner a problem and the other does not; if I lead the J (and partner should play the King on this because he can see that otherwise there is no defense), partner has no problem (Even with no more clubs - just return a spade); if I lead the J and partner cannot win this but later wins the heart King, again partner has no problem; but if I lead the 3 of spades and partner later wins the King of hearts, he has a problem - spades or clubs?

No doubt right for all the wrong reasons or wrong for all the right reasons, LoL.

Thanks you always for you input though, Mr. W.

WinstonM

[badderzboy]

I suppose the lead of the J may cause partner to duck his K which means S then cashes out the red suits and also gives up the AJ over declarers Q....

Also if partner only had a dbltn club then the spade can be returned to AJ over the Q leading to 3 spade tricks too

The 3 leads to no ambiguity and possibility of 3 spade tricks combining the most chances?

Steve(BIL)

[shanbari]

badderzboy, on Jun 4 2005, 01:54 PM, said:

I suppose the lead of the J may cause partner to duck his K which means S then cashes out the red suits and also gives up the AJ over declarers Q....

Also if partner only had a dbltn club then the spade can be returned to AJ over the Q leading to 3 spade tricks too

The 3 leads to no ambiguity and possibility of 3 spade tricks combining the most chances?

Steve(BIL)

hi steve,

i agree all of what you say, except the most chance.
with the followin layout, SJ works better than S3


south hand:
S: KQ9X
H: ....
D: 8xxx
C: ...


SJ would cause declear commnication problem, declear won't be able to setup 3 spade tricks anymore.

however return S3, declear can simply drive out SA, and eventually use D8 to cash the last spade..


i have to admit, the chance of above layout is quite low.
partnering with average player, i would probably return S3 then.


SHAN

[Winstonm]

A last point - and I admit I just thought of it - is that I cannot imagine a layout where West would lead the Jack of spades without the Ace.

[Walddk]

Seems like the jack will work fine too, as long as East remembers to go up with the king. Maybe it's obvious that he should, but sometimes you just play an automatic low card. If West returns the 3, one can be pretty certain that East follows the rule of "third hand high".

Roland

[Winstonm]

Yes, much like pick your poison, LoL. Do you try to protect partner from error by leading low if he has the spade King, or do you try to protect him from the wrong suit return when he instead holds the heart king.

WinstonM

[Double !]

OK, at rubber bridge or IMPs (or imps?) the spade switch was a reasonable 2-way shot to try to defeat the contract, basically if not "x", then "y".

Question/ what about the "real world" of MATCHPOINTS?
Is the low spade switch the percentage defense playing matchpoints?
Perhaps one question is, "can declarer have an 8-count including both major-suit kings and still rebid only 2NT over the "reverse?" Do we defend Passively or Actively on this hand? Was the bidding and final contract seemingly somewhat normal, whatever normal is?. (I am not convinced that they were.) Is it being declared from the right side? Did I find a good opening lead or my typical trick out the window opening lead?

Anyway, your play, trick 3, matchpoints.

[Fluffy]

Walddk, on Jun 4 2005, 07:13 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

South: 3NT
Lead: C2

---

Here is the full hand. The bidding was:

1♦ - 1♠
2♥ - 2NT
3NT - pass

Trick 1: ♣2, 3, A, 5.

Trick 2: ♣7, 8, J, 10.

Trick 3: ??

After the return of ♣7 West correctly realised that the rest of the clubs would not stand up and was now on a guess as to which major suit king partner had. He switched to a heart which was a disaster on this layout.

Could he have known? Surely not, but the thing is that he didn't have to guess at this point. The return of ♠3!! would give him another go if East didn't have ♠K. Let's assume that the layout had been this:

Scoring: IMP

South: 3NT
Lead: C2

---

Declarer could win dummy's 10 and continue spades to West's ace, and now it's time to switch to a heart. South has no choice; he must take the finesse, and the contract goes down.

Note that ♠3 is the card to return, and not the jack or ace. If you switch to ♠A to see if partner likes it or not, you would just have presented declarer with the contract, and the jack is equally wrong in case East had been out of clubs.

♠3 caters for everything whenever the contract can be defeated. Well done to those of you who found the killing switch!

Roland

But... ♣K works as well :-P

[pclayton]

If South can be assumed to deny 5 spades with the 2N call then I agree with Roland's assessment that the spade shift "defeats the contract when it can be defeated".

If south can hold KQxxx of spades, then the spade shift hands him the contract, whereas the heart sinks it. But in that case its just a straight guess.

[Winstonm]

Quote

But... ♣K works as well :-P

Well, there are two distributions where the club king followed by a spade switch works out poorly:

KQxx
xx
8x
Q8xxx

and

KQxx
x,
xxx
Q8xxx

And the club king followed by a heart works poorly here:

Qxxx
KJ
xx
Q8xxx

So although the club king may not hurt, it can give away the contract, and you still have the same problem afterwards, so it is best not to play it. A spade switch will always beat the contract when it can be set. Then it's a debate on which spade is best.

WinstonM

[Fluffy]

Dear Winstom, the ♣K is intended to be played specially on THOSE hands you posted (see myprevious hidden post form more referencecs), because partner can signal his King then.