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Double, Diamond or ?

#21 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 17:02

View Postcrapdown4, on 2020-August-20, 16:26, said:

I bid 3C, my pard bids 3NT with a club stopper, otherwise he bids something and goes down horribly bwahahahahaha.

Actually, I can't conceive of any bid other than double. So I'm a wee bit offshape. That's more than compensated for by having 17 support points (counting the club K as merely a singleton) for whatever partner bids. If he jumps, he's in game; otherwise, he'll make one happy heart or spade. (If he bids 2D, I AM trotting out the 3C cuebid.)


I'm certainly raising a spade to 2, as little as Jxxxx, x, Kxx, xxxx you're quite likely making 5 so make it a little less perfect than that.
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#22 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 07:03

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-August-20, 12:16, said:

Well J10, KQxxx, xx, xxxx would be nowhere near 2 and make 4 a fair amount of the time (the diamond finesse is 3 or 4 to 1 on), not sure I'd bid 2 even with an extra red J.



On the contrary, J10 KQxxx xx xxxx is very close to 2. 8 pts, according to Kaplan's valuation in "Competitive bidding ..." A red jack would make it a clearcut 2 advance. As it is, advancer will certainly bid again if given a chance at the 2 level.

Conservatism by the advancer to a takeout double creates terrible problems. And it does not gain much safety, because the doubler will be tempted to hope that non-jump advance has values.
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#23 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 08:21

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-August-21, 07:03, said:

On the contrary, J10 KQxxx xx xxxx is very close to 2. 8 pts, according to Kaplan's valuation in "Competitive bidding ..." A red jack would make it a clearcut 2 advance. As it is, advancer will certainly bid again if given a chance at the 2 level.

Conservatism by the advancer to a takeout double creates terrible problems. And it does not gain much safety, because the doubler will be tempted to hope that non-jump advance has values.


8 points on which planet ? one where you count doubleton J10 as 2, either the doubleton or the quack, not both.
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#24 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 18:13

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-August-21, 08:21, said:

8 points on which planet ? one where you count doubleton J10 as 2, either the doubleton or the quack, not both.


Believe it or not, Kaplan added a point for doubleton other than suit opened AND a point for the 5th card in a suit (and 2 more for the 6th).

He emphasized that the simple advance was a *negative* bid, like the 2NT response to a strong 2-bid.

That method *works*. Look for excuses to show strength when your partner doubles.
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#25 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 18:59

You are not strong enough to double and then bid Diamonds. This doesn't mean that double is a bad bid. It simply means that doubling and rebidding Diamonds is a poor call.

I'm fairly indifferent between

Double
1
1

I suspect that I would double, but might very well bid 1 if I wanted to shake things up a little
Alderaan delenda est
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#26 User is offline   doccdl 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 23:16

I feel it is a clear cut case for Double.It has certain advantages,Responder knows that it is a general purpose bid to be clarified on the next round as also it enables responder to compete if he has major either right away or on the next round(if has 6or less HCP) 1O over all is a dubious bid on this particular hand.The diamond suit is not strong or long enough.The hand is almost a 3suiter one (by that I mean it has decent support for all the 3 remaining suits and partner has the liberty to choose any as per his holdings).If it goes 1 x 1pp one can double again to depict a diamond @and spades lengths.Also partner may lead any suit of his choice if LHO buys the hand in NT. All said,Double is a marked bid on this hand,
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#27 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2020-August-23, 21:25

Double is clear.

1. If the opponents stay silent over partner's dreaded 1, I am fine with 2 because partner probably has a few cards across. Couldn't partner hold 4? We do bid up the line over a takeout double don't we?

2. If I bid 1, the auction may get a little awkward. We are OK if the bad guys bid and raise hearts (we can x) or rebid (same). But what if they rebid 1N? What if they bid spades? We need soooo little to make a game in hearts and 1 doesn't move us there at all.

The idea that double and 2 shows some sort of monstrous single-suiter without reference to the other suits is something of an antiquated concept. If I have some 21 count and seven diamonds, my correct call is 3, not 2. You can weaken it a little and take away a diamond and that still would be true.

I would feel a lot better overcalling 1 with a similar strength hand and SIX diamonds, because, wait for it, I want to emphasize diamonds.
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#28 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-August-28, 12:20

"The idea that double and 2 shows some sort of monstrous single-suiter without reference to the other suits is something of an antiquated concept. If I have some 21 count and seven diamonds, my correct call is 3, not 2. You can weaken it a little and take away a diamond and that still would be true."

Yes, double then 2 is 17-20 total pts and 5+ . But partner must not then take an action that presumes 3-card support for his suit.
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#29 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-August-28, 16:07

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-August-21, 18:13, said:

Believe it or not, Kaplan added a point for doubleton other than suit opened AND a point for the 5th card in a suit (and 2 more for the 6th).

He emphasized that the simple advance was a *negative* bid, like the 2NT response to a strong 2-bid.

That method *works*. Look for excuses to show strength when your partner doubles.

You can certainly add a point for the doubleton, but then you would subtract the point for the jack. There is no way on earth Kaplan would count both of them.
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