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points needed for action 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is online   dickiegera 

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Posted 2020-July-31, 15:17



I do not have enough points to neg Double

and not enough to over call 2.

I guess I must pass.

ALL CORRECT?

Must I wait and see if I can bid later?

Under what circumstance could I later bid?


Thank you
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#2 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2020-July-31, 16:12

I think a lot of people would double with this hand, using the ever subtle argument 'Points Schmoints'. In general I am keen to enter the auction in situations like this, which is called 'an aggressive style'. That being said, I think Pass is better here because of the four spades. It is against the odds that they will raise to 2, so you are almost guaranteed a chance to bid 2 on the second round.

By passing first you have limited your strength, and therefore you are allowed to bid in almost any competitive situation later (provided you are still safe at the two level). Some example auctions:

  • 1-(1)-P-(P)-X-(P)-2
  • 1-(1)-P-(1NT)-X-(P)-2
  • 1-(1)-P-(P)-2-(P)-2 (Here some people would pass, but in my system the 2 rebid does not guarantee a 6-card suit. Plus, if we're going to play in a misfit it is generally better to play the suit of the weak hand, creating more entries).
  • 1-(1)-P-2-P-(P)-2 (Get your suit in while the bidding's good. This is not risk-free, but neither is passing)
  • 1-(1)-P-2-P-(P)-P (3 is too high, you missed your chance. This is why people might consider a double on 1).

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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-August-01, 01:17

 dickiegera, on 2020-July-31, 15:17, said:

I do not have enough points to neg Double


How many points do you think that you have? Five HCPs - but all of my points are in my five-card suit. I don't particularly like the singleton in partner's suit, which is a particular concern if playing a system like Acol where partner's clubs are real. But overall, it is surely worth an upgrade?
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#4 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-August-01, 06:28

I remember vaguely a Jimmy Cayne 2/1 hand from a few years ago where the auction went 1 - (1) - Dbl. with the doubler holding Jxxx KJxx Jxxx x. I won't say who the other player was, but Cayne was furious afterwards that his partner had doubled with this hand. The gist of the argument, as I remember, went that Cayne expected to see a hand with at least an ace and a king in it, one-and-a-half quick tricks opposite him.

I remember, too, one of the Italian masters of this game, either Duboin, Bocchi or one their regular partners playing an exhibition match against, I believe, a Bill Gates, team on BBO where all the expert commentators expected a Negative Dbl. with a one-an-half quick trick hand, but responder passed!

So learning from these players, I do not see any option other than 'Pass'. It is an underused bid. This hand has some defence against a possible contract by the opposition. You don't want to give partner the impression that you are stronger than you are in a competitive auction, so I would 'let sleeping dogs lie' in a bidding sense and wait to see what happens next.
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-August-01, 06:51


dickiegera "I do not have enough points to neg Double and not enough to over call 2. I guess I must pass. ALL CORRECT? Must I wait and see if I can bid later? Under what circumstance could I later bid?"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FWIW, I'd pass. I don't want to excite partner because of the potential misfit. LHO is likely to bid or partner to protect, so I might get another chance to show my s.

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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-August-01, 08:56

You were, imo, correct in saying ‘pass’

If partner has a hand strong enough for your side to ‘own the hand’, he’ll take action when the auction comes back to him, and now you can bid. Say he has some 1=4=3=5 or 1=3=4=5, with 16+..and Lho raises to 2S. Partner doubles, you bid 3H.

If partner has a weak hand with spade length, then with your hand you’re almost surely best of defending 1S if Lho passes.

Meanwhile, look what double does if partner does not have 4 hearts.

With a flat 12-13, and a spade card, he bids 1N. I don’t like my chances in 1N when my hand is probably worth only 1 trick. Or, worse, he bids clubs...a live possibility given your hand.

Once in a while, you pass, LHO bids and partner, even with 4 hearts, is shut out, and you miss a partial. Bridge is a game of probabilities, and aiming to be ‘right’ on every bidding decision is aiming at the impossible. Instead, aim to be a steady, reliable bidder, who listens to the auction and stays within himself, and system parameters. Here, bidding is more likely to mislead partner and/or reach a poor spot than it is necessary to attain a good outcome.
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#7 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-August-02, 02:03

 mikeh, on 2020-August-01, 08:56, said:

Here, bidding is more likely to mislead partner and/or reach a poor spot than it is necessary to attain a good outcome.

Mikeh’s comments are always full of good sense and wisdom.
I’ve always thought, when Xing, esp with borderline hands, that you need a decent (or safe enough) spot to land on if partner (as always) doesn’t bid what you want.
Here, we might end up in some 5-1 fits, or go down in a 5-2 fit, at an unsafe level when opps were not making anything. Bidding isn’t over yet: trust partner to act with the right shape or strength, and you might be able to (pre)balance 2H if the bidding stops low enough.
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#8 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 04:31

View PostDavidKok, on 2020-July-31, 16:12, said:

I think a lot of people would double with this hand, using the ever subtle argument 'Points Schmoints'. In general I am keen to enter the auction in situations like this, which is called 'an aggressive style'. That being said, I think Pass is better here because of the four spades. It is against the odds that they will raise to 2, so you are almost guaranteed a chance to bid 2 on the second round.

By passing first you have limited your strength, and therefore you are allowed to bid in almost any competitive situation later (provided you are still safe at the two level). Some example auctions:

  • 1-(1)-P-(P)-X-(P)-2
  • 1-(1)-P-(1NT)-X-(P)-2
  • 1-(1)-P-(P)-2-(P)-2 (Here some people would pass, but in my system the 2 rebid does not guarantee a 6-card suit. Plus, if we're going to play in a misfit it is generally better to play the suit of the weak hand, creating more entries).
  • 1-(1)-P-2-P-(P)-2 (Get your suit in while the bidding's good. This is not risk-free, but neither is passing)
  • 1-(1)-P-2-P-(P)-P (3 is too high, you missed your chance. This is why people might consider a double on 1).



In addition, if LHO does raise spades, partner is marked with a singleton or void and can double if they have extras, then you can show your heart suit.

I prefer a takeout double here to show proper responding values (i.e. a good 6+), so I would pass and hope to have a chance to show the hearts next time. If there isn't a next time, it probably wasn't our hand and we are getting outbid whatever.
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#9 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 09:29

I pass.

I have four cards in their suit and only one in Partner's suit, and I have only 5 points

It's a case of what's the winning action most of the time.

D.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2020-August-03, 13:59

I want to double, but I'm passing. B-)
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