[mike777]

Just watched this hand

P=1C=1S=1NT
X........

What is standard top class understanding?
When, if ever, is x an alert in this position?
If possible please site specific rules.
Is it a fair statement that in the ACBL the rules for alerting doubles are FUZZY?

[joker_gib]

Easier here in Belgium, you cannot alert a double !!

And I think it's a good thing !

Alain

[Gerben42]

Playing with screens as in this match you have to alert artificial doubles. Even in Belgium.

I don't know about "top class" understanding but mine is that it is take out with ♠ tolerance.

[the hog]

Agree with Gerben. In Australia, the X would only be alertable with screens, and my interpretation of its meaning is the same as Gerben's.

[joker_gib]

Ron, Gerben,

I totally agree with you and playing with screens I also alert it !

But without screens, is it alertable in your countries ?

Alain

[kgr]

joker_gib, on Jun 10 2005, 07:55 AM, said:

Easier here in Belgium, you cannot alert a double !!

And I think it's a good thing !

Alain

Most of the time this is good.
Except if you DBL and opps don't expect it to be conventional.
f.i.:
(1NT)-DBL
You play this double as showing 5 card m and 4 card M.
You always played this to show 15-17 HCP, as everybody in your club does. This is what your opps expect and they will not ask.
(You could alert anyway, but partner tends to forget new agreements. So if he has the 15-17HCP hand then alerting would give even bigger issues.)

[joker_gib]

When the doubles are not alerted it is the responsability of the opps to ask about them.

Especially in a situation like 1NT - X where a lot of meanings exist !

Alain

[FrancesHinden]

In England it is not alertable if it is for penalties, alertable otherwise.

I think it is fairly standard to play this as a penalty double.

By the way "take-out with tolerance for spades" and "penalties" are actually not so far removed from each other in terms of the actual hand you would double on. Both look like maximum pass values, fairly balanced. I'm more likely to have a singleton spade and club cards than you, but that's all.

[FrancesHinden]

joker_gib, on Jun 10 2005, 02:55 AM, said:

Easier here in Belgium, you cannot alert a double !!

And I think it's a good thing !

Alain

This just means that every time someone doubles, I have to ask what it means.
Why is that a good thing? Doesn't it just slow the game down?

[helene_t]

If you are not allowed to alert doubles, it is reasonable to pre-alert exotic doubles like Lionel, Woolsey, and 1♣-(1♦)-dbl showing hearts only.

In the Netherlands, you are not allowed to alert doubles, but we still alert redoubles and passes with exotic meanings. In Germany, passes and redoubles are non-alertable, too.

As for the double in this topic, I agree with Gerben and others. I've seen it used as psyche-exposing with an unpassed hand, but even then I think the primary meaning would be take-out with spade tollerance.

[Gerben42]

I think not alerting artificial pass and redouble is a bad thing. That just leads to people sneakily interchanging meanings of redouble and pass in many situations.

I've encountered:

1X (dbl) pass = 10+ for penalties
1X (p) 1Y (dbl) pass = Rosenkrantz: Hx support, redouble denying such

You are not allowed to alert this so this is just hiding your secret agreements. Of course redouble gets asked but not pass.

Alerting doubles: For many pairs this seems to help them more than the opponents, which is why they said "don't alert doubles". In complex situations you"ll get handwaving anyway and feel sorry you asked in the first place. A good rule might be "do not alert a double in the spectrum from penalty to takeout (negative, maximal, action, reopening, etc.), but alert conventional doubles"

About the psyche-exposing double in this particular situation, no thanks. If they have psyched 1NTx is not going to be the end of it. Meanwhile I'll bid my hand, if they don't bid theirs that's their problem.

[cherdano]

So what happened at the table?

Btw, in Germany all of pass, double, redouble and any bid higher than 3NT may never be alerted, too. I don't like the rule myself. Do you want to ask everytime your partners weak 2♠ got doubled? Or instead find out it showed 16-18 balanced with spades stopper AFTER you raised? (This occurred to me at the table, I don't think opponents had bad intentions exploiting the rules.)

Arend

[Gerben42]

I don't think so either. But some do.

1♦ Dbl Pass(no alert) = what a rdbl is for others
is an example

[mike777]

cherdano, on Jun 10 2005, 09:23 AM, said:

So what happened at the table?

Rosenberg had 5H and 2 spades.
Stansby knew it was responsive and bid 2h on her 3 card h suit.
2H was also played at other table.
At this table in middle of hand much confusion reigned as players were pulled away for a chat.

R/S said they were told before match to not alert
Director ruled alert in future but no damage here, play on.

[pigpenz]

standard double would be for penalties, but I have seen players that will use this double for takeout and some also play some form of dont/cappelletti strucutes even over these type of auctions especially at matchpoints.