[arunodoysa]

Hi All,

My friend sent an interesting hand to me. Opp opened 1NT and my friend and his partner have a good hand

West opened 1nt - North partner passed - east opp p passed- south active hand:

South

S A K Q 10 9
H 9 5
D K Q
C 9 8 5 2

Just to make things easier: North hand:

S J 7 6
H Q J 7 4
D A J 10 8 2
C 7

Now if South uses DONT and calls 2c (4 clubs and 5 card higher- spades in this case) is it the right bid?
1a If u think 2c overcall is the right bid, then the north partner will probably call 2d to deny clubs and ask partner to correct
Accidentally, in this case partner actually also has 6 card d support, 2d will look like a deny of clubs and ask overcaller (south) to call his next suit

1b. In this case, after North’s 2d (apparently a deny call of 2c), if south calls 2s, what is north’s best call? I want to know if they could reach 4s somehow using DONT

1c Imagine, if North had only 1 spade support when south bids 2s, should North bid 3d or something else to find better fit or just pass? What I mean is how can he show actual 6 card diamond? Should he bid 3d after 2c; I guess not

1d is 2c a right call to start with? Although c and s shape is 4/5 here, clubs is very weak here; so I am even confused about 2c overcall using DONT here

2. Should we use a totally different approach than using DONT for a case like this? Can anyone clarify please?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the North hand is a DONT 2D bid.
In case you want to get in with the South hand using DONT, I would sell the hand as 1-suited,
and this would either a direct 2S or x followed by 2S, the later route is usually showing a stronger hand,
which may or may fit the bill for the given hand.
But I am not sure, I want to get in. I have fair chances of beating 1NT, I just need to get in, so most likely
I would pass with the South hand.


DONT is not designed to bid game contracts your way in a constructive fashion.
DONT stands for disturbe oppoenents NT, i.e. it is a destructive method, not a
constructive method.
The only reasonable why to reach 4S using DONT, South sells the hand as good 1-suited, given the difference
in suit quality not the worst idea, and showing the stronger variant.
If North sees a 6-3 fit facing an opening hand, he will at least invite, and 4S could be reached.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

You want to choose between methods based mainly on frequency. In my experience, it does not pay to have a penalty double available over a strong NT, but over a weak NT I always prefer to have one. I realise that this is not an answer to the OP question, but it is useful to keep in mind when deciding whether you want to retain DONT or reject it.

[mycroft]

The answer to the title is: meh, if partner wants. I definitely am getting more jaded on the system as the years go by.

The answer to the actual question, without looking at the hands, is: Yes.

DONT stands for "Disturb Opponents' No Trump". The idea is that they have a nice uninterrupted auction, they will get to the right contract almost always after a 1NT opener, and if you allow them to play 1NT (especially when they're not vulnerable), your expected value is Average-. So you play a system that will not give them a nice uninterrupted auction much of the time, and will not let them play 1NT that often. You do that, knowing the many disadvantages:

• you will play the first safe contract, which frequently isn't the best contract. If 2♣ and 2♠ make, you're getting +90 where other playing more constructive systems are +110.
  
• Your "disruption" isn't very good at interrupting their auction - almost all one-suiters, and half the two-suiters, can be defended against by the simple defence of "XX for blood, otherwise ignore the interference". Note that the other goal - not letting them play 1NT - it's very good at, I'm not denying that.
  
• Frequently, you get to play 7 card fits instead of 8, because, again, "safest contract". It's not safe to leave your potential 7-carder to find an 8-carder if you have to go to the 3 level if there isn't one.

Therefore, the only way to get anything out of this and be at the level of a more constructive interference system is to DONT on hands that more constructive systems have to pass. Which means that you double with almost any 6-card suit, and you overcall with almost any 5-4, (and if you're like Marty, as I am, decent 4-4s, especially 4-4-4-1s). You hope to break even on the hands where everybody's interfering, and win when the more constructive opponents are defending 1NT, or when your 2♦ call actually does make life more difficult for the opponents. You also are sort of a wash when defending, because while the opponents have more information about your shape than the tables where there wasn't interference, that information is actually more vague when "everybody's interfering" (who's got the Q? If they only bid on sound hands, then the bidder. If they bid on anything, who knows?)

So, if you're deciding if "this hand is good enough to DONT on", the answer is "Yes."

Finally, looking at the hands:

---

Playing DONT, North has an automatic 2♦ call. It's not even close. If you aren't comfortable bidding 2♦ with the North hand, don't play DONT. Play something more constructive that pays off when you do overcall.

Now 2♦ is unfortunate, because it makes it hard to find your spade fit (although with the possibility of either red suit being a 4-2, I might bid 2♠ as South "I don't care that you're the reds, we're better off here". You're not getting to 4; if you don't want to miss games like this, don't play DONT. Play something more constructive.

Having it go 1NT-p-p, South's 2♣ bid is also automatic (unless you decide it's a one-suiter and double as P_Marlowe says. Actually that might get you to game, because "not bad one-suiter spades" really does improve South North's hand. But it wouldn't get you to 4♥ with the majors switched). You're almost certainly playing 2♠ in this auction. Won't be the last magic +170 you'll write down (I even have one or two in diamonds).

[dokoko]

If you think pass is normal on the North hand, stop playing DONT but use some constructive method. That way you may get to some games (perhaps not this one).

[Zelandakh]

 mycroft, on 2020-July-29, 11:07, said:

Now 2♦ is unfortunate, because it makes it hard to find your spade fit (although with the possibility of either red suit being a 4-2, I might bid 2♠ as South "I don't care that you're the reds, we're better off here". You're not getting to 4; if you don't want to miss games like this, don't play DONT. Play something more constructive.

Quick question for you as someone that has never used DONT but has played some other scramble-style 1NT defences. As you play it, how much stronger would the South hand have to be in order to advance 2NT?

[DavidKok]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-August-02, 09:29, said:

Quick question for you as someone that has never used DONT but has played some other scramble-style 1NT defences. As you play it, how much stronger would the South hand have to be in order to advance 2NT?

When playing a destructive method like DONT you want to avoid punishing partner for shapely bids at (almost) all costs. Keep in mind the goal of the convention is to get to a(ny) safe 2-level contract, nothing more and nothing less. A 2NT reply would therefore be rather strange, and require solid justification. Keeping in mind that we want partner to bid shapely 6-point hands, you should probably have at least a fit with 14+ points, or around 17+ without a fit. You are forcing to the 3-level, after all.

If you are worried about missing a 10-opposite-15 point game after their NT simply do not play DONT.

[Zelandakh]

 DavidKok, on 2020-August-02, 13:31, said:

When playing a destructive method like DONT you want to avoid punishing partner for shapely bids at (almost) all costs.

So are you saying that there is absolutely no 5224 hand that would be strong enough to bid 2NT?

[DavidKok]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-August-02, 13:40, said:

So are you saying that there is absolutely no 5224 hand that would be strong enough to bid 2NT?

No, I'm saying that such a hand would have to be very strong, which is extremely rare in light of the 1NT opening. DONT is a convention to combat strong NT, so let's assume 15-17. I said 17+ points without a fit in my previous post, which leaves 8 points tops for partner, less if the 1NT was not a minimum or if the partner of opener has more than a boring 0.

The more general point is that with a constructive method it is standard practice to reserve bidding space for asking strength and investigating sharp games. With a destructive method like DONT you can take much more liberties on the first round (such as bidding 2♦ on the given 9-point hand), but in return advancer should not ask themselves "can we perhaps make game?" but rather "are we too high already?". If you have length in partner's suit you are free to raise, as always in competition. Without a fit you need a powerhouse of a hand, and personally I'd start making noise around 17 points as I said before.

With DONT you do not bid a contract to make, but instead you bid based on the law of total tricks (playing the 2-level in an 8-card fit is 'safe' regardless of strength of the combined hands) and to disrupt all their fancy conventions.

[Zelandakh]

 DavidKok, on 2020-August-02, 14:06, said:

OK, so taking the original hand, change a small ♣ to the king and you would bid 2NT but with only the ♣Q extra, you would not. Is that correct?

[DavidKok]

Yes.

Keep in mind that with partner's hand as given if you add the ♣K to the South hand this leaves only 14 points for the 1NT opener. People tend to upgrade considerably so this is quite possible, but from South's perspective during the bidding this should be considered an unlikely ideal outcome.

I've taken the liberty of plugging the hands into a double dummy solver, and even without any club values NS can make 4♠ against best defence. So on this deal an aggressive raise would lead to a good score. On average this is the wrong view to take with DONT, though.

[Zelandakh]

 DavidKok, on 2020-August-03, 01:52, said:

Yes.

Keep in mind that with partner's hand as given if you add the ♣K to the South hand this leaves only 14 points for the 1NT opener. People tend to upgrade considerably so this is quite possible, but from South's perspective during the bidding this should be considered an unlikely ideal outcome.

I've taken the liberty of plugging the hands into a double dummy solver, and even without any club values NS can make 4♠ against best defence. So on this deal an aggressive raise would lead to a good score. On average this is the wrong view to take with DONT, though.

As far as my question goes, the North hand is completely irrelevant. I am sure (from the "on average" comment if nothing else) you would agree that picking system based on a single hand is a bad idea.

I would assume though, that you do pick ranges for min-max for Overcaller's rebid based on this 2NT range, so ~7+ for a max? That is about a point off from what I would have expected, so I got something from this already. It would be nice now to hear from mycroft (and any other DONT players for that matter) whether they play it the same way.

[helene_t]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-August-02, 09:29, said:

how much stronger would the South hand have to be in order to advance 2NT?

I've never discussed this with any partner. I'm also not sure how to respond to such a 2NT bid. Presumably bid 5-card suit with minimum, 3NT with maximum, maybe 4M with a 5-card suit and max?

With 17 points I think I would just regret that we don't have a work-out constructive follow up so, just pass or correct. We are quite likely to miss game but an undiscussed 2NT could easily lead to a ridicolous contract.

With 19 points I would try 2NT but not expect a good result.

[Zelandakh]

 helene_t, on 2020-August-03, 17:35, said:

I've never discussed this with any partner. I'm also not sure how to respond to such a 2NT bid. Presumably bid 5-card suit with minimum, 3NT with maximum, maybe 4M with a 5-card suit and max?

My understanding of DONT is that part of the convention is a constructive 2NT advance with continuations (over 2♦) of:-

3♣ = min with primary ♦
3♦ = min with primary major
3♥ = max with 4+♥
3♠ = max with 4+♠

My original thinking on this had been that a constructive hand would be in the 16+ order with a max being 8+ but I can see from the answers that I was way too optimistic here. It also seems to be clear that if I ever just agree DONT with a PUP that I should not make any assumptions that they will know too many follow-ups. That is usually a good mantra with a PUP but I always find it a little galling when I agree their method and they do not know how it actually works!

[DavidKok]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-August-03, 19:44, said:

That is usually a good mantra with a PUP but I always find it a little galling when I agree their method and they do not know how it actually works!

Completely true, and unfortunately all too common. My personal pet peeve is the number of (not commonly known) follow-ups to RKC Blackwood, or their jump responses. That being said I'm also guilty of this, I only learned the other week that in a 2+ 1♣ system (which I have been playing for years now) a 1NT response does not promise club length, but can be made on a hand such as 3=2=5=3 with a desire to be declarer. And my CC reads "Good/Bad NT", but I'm still struggling to find out when it is on and when it is not. So I have sympathy with the PUP in your scenario

[mycroft]

For me I don't think it's pictures, it's shape. With 5=2=4=2, 2NT comes to mind. With 5=4=2=2, same. The chance of playing at the 3 level in either partner's not-necessarily-great 5=2 fit, or my really good 5=2 fit (and can I bid 3♠ after partner's call and have it be non-forcing? probably not) scares me with this hand.

We don't have vulnerability in the OP, but white, I could be on 8 KJ63 T8632 QJ6 for my 2♦ overcall. Red, at matchpoints, not necessarily that much more. +170 is a rotten score, but we'll have company. -500 is also a rotten score, and we're less likely to have company.

[msjennifer]

Sir,Just had a look at profile.DONT,in my personal opinion,is a destructive method.It is advisable at this stage to play constructive bids against both weak or strong NT openings.And there are a variety of options available to choose from.I ,many years back,started with ASTRO,then a dash of Landy and finally settled for modified Cappeletti.Never thought of using DONT at all,as I personally am in favour of constructive approach style of bidding. Thanks.

[mycroft]

I note that I don't think I've ever bid 2NT after a DONT overcall (and once after a Woolsey overcall of a 11-13 NT). I am known as a bad card holder (my card even has "mycroft only: APAD" (Always Pass As Dealer)). I pay a lot more attention to the "when to compete to the 3 level" after a strong NT by the opponents than "how do I bid game", because the former is something that happens more often than Christmas.

[helene_t]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-August-03, 19:44, said:

I always find it a little galling when I agree their method and they do not know how it actually works!

I once had a costly misunderstanding playing DONT with a pick-up:

(1nt)-2♦-(x)-(xx)

I thought it was standard that xx replaces the non-forcing relay, so the 2♥ is to play. But he thought it was to play. It is probably more important to get this straight than to discuss constructive follow-ups.

Btw, Manudude03 remarked that it's better to play xx as a puppet to 2♥, and retain 2♥ as the nonforcing relay.

[helene_t]

snip