[pilowsky]

Did I misinterpret this response to 4NT - what was GIB telling me? GIB North opens with this hand

---

E and W pass throughout.
I have:

---

North opens 1♦.

I'm pretty excited. I have 16HCP. I'm thinking slam.
I ask for Aces.
North "thinks" for a moment and then replies:

5♠
Two or five key cards; queen
-- 3+ ♦; 11-21 HCP; ♦Q; 12
-22 total points

Seriously? I blame myself for bidding 7NT which West - holding the ♥A doubled.
LIN

[paulg]

North seems to have two key cards in diamonds plus two extra diamonds that make showing the queen of diamonds a reasonable idea, given that anyone immediately asking for aces is expected to have at least five diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

pilowsky, on 2020-July-16, 06:06, said:

Seriously?

I agree completely. How anyone can seriously respond 4NT with that South hand is anyone's guess. How hard can it possibly be to start showing 4 card suits with a forcing call?

[DavidKok]

Are you sure 4NT wasn't simply quantitative and 5♠ is natural? I don't see the appeal in ace-asking bids at this point of the auction.

As an aside, there are only 9 top tricks, 11 if the diamonds run. Even making 6NT requires some correct guess in hearts or clubs. 6♠ looks much better to me.

[Vampyr]

DavidKok, on 2020-July-16, 08:02, said:

Are you sure 4NT wasn't simply quantitative and 5♠ is natural?

Well, GIB did give its explanation, which the OP has provided.

Quote

I don't see the appeal in ace-asking bids at this point of the auction.

Nor the appeal in bidding a grand with a known missing key card.

[lamford]

Zelandakh, on 2020-July-16, 06:51, said:

I agree completely. How anyone can seriously respond 4NT with that South hand is anyone's guess. How hard can it possibly be to start showing 4 card suits with a forcing call?

There is an argument that 4NT should be "simple" Blackwood.

[lamford]

DavidKok, on 2020-July-16, 08:02, said:

6♠ looks much better to me.

I agree, and someone who calls a spade a spade might get there.

[KingCovert]

I'd imagine that a standard treatment for 4NT in this situation would be quantitative. GIB seems to have it defined as 1430, so, okay. 2 keycards can mean the K♦ is one of them, and you have to cater to that. It's a truly poor auction though.

First of all, 12 HCP + 16 HCP = how much HCP? Why do you think you have slam at all? There's really no reason to suggest you're taking any more than 10 tricks at this point. And, you'll never have a clue what contract is correct after bidding 4NT. 6NT is considered mandatory at 32 or 33 HCP, depending on who you ask. It can make on less, but, generally you need a good source of tricks. That's quite a ways from the 12 HCP that is required for the 1♦ opener. It seems that your enthusiasm caused you to jump the gun on this one.

Unfortunately for you, you got the result that your auction deserved, but, perhaps this will really hammer home this particular mistake such that you don't make it again.

[johnu]

Clearly North's 5♠ showed 5 keycards and trump queen. How else would you end up in a grand?

[DozyDom]

GIB's response is correct, so long as 4NT is KC in diamonds. 5S either shows 2 KCs and the Q of trumps, or guarantees a 10 card fit. If 4NT is a bid showing slam interest actually in diamonds, you're going to have 5 card support; P has only shown 3, after all. So GIB has told you what you wanted to know, hopefully.

[smerriman]

DozyDom, on 2020-July-16, 13:19, said:

GIB's response is correct, so long as 4NT is KC in diamonds. 5S either shows 2 KCs and the Q of trumps, or guarantees a 10 card fit. If 4NT is a bid showing slam interest actually in diamonds, you're going to have 5 card support; P has only shown 3, after all. So GIB has told you what you wanted to know, hopefully.

This is correct. GIB's definition of 1♦ shows 3+ diamonds, and its definition of 4NT shows 5+ diamonds. With a guaranteed 10 card fit, 5♠ is the correct response.

[spotlight7]

pilowsky, on 2020-July-16, 06:06, said:

Did I misinterpret this response to 4NT - what was GIB telling me? GIB North opens with this hand

---

E and W pass throughout.
I have:

---

North opens 1♦.

I'm pretty excited. I have 16HCP. I'm thinking slam.
I ask for Aces.
North "thinks" for a moment and then replies:

5♠
Two or five key cards; queen
-- 3+ ♦; 11-21 HCP; ♦Q; 12
-22 total points

Seriously? I blame myself for bidding 7NT which West - holding the ♥A doubled.
LIN

Did you notice that 4N showed 20+HCP and 7NT promised 25+?

This means that you overbid by 4+HCP for 4N and by 9+HCP for 7N.


Bidding slams on HCP is often suggested as 33 for 6N and 37 for 7N.

Your results would likely greatly improve if you allowed partner to 'limit' their values.

[nullve]

Possible explanations of the 5♠ response to RKC, in order of accuracy:

1) 2 or 5 key cards, no void and either the trump queen or compensating trump length
2) 2 or 5 key cards and either the trump queen or compensating trump length
3) 2 or 5 key cards and the trump queen
4) 2 key cards and the trump queen
5) 2 aces and the trump queen

I've only heard equivalents of 2)-5) at the table.

[nekthen]

The lesson is take it slow and dont mastermind partner.
Playing with a human, I hope that you would simply respond 1♠

[Huibertus]

The robot system allows for a 3crd 1♦ opening.

For you to jump straight into 4NT for keycards therefore implies a 5 card ♦.

Norht holding a 5 card♦ therefore "knows" the combined hands hold 10+ trumps and therefore of course he promissed trump Q, + the 2 keycards it actually holds.

I would do the same.

By the way, you hold two keycards, how do you assess the combined number of keycards, 2+2 = 4 or 2+5 = 7?

[pilowsky]

. You are all completely right. What I have learned this week is how to take it slow. I figured that I might be able to finagle into 6NT without giving too much away, but in the end, outsmarted myself. Something which I'm sure you will all agree should not be too hard to do.

[Vampyr]

pilowsky, on 2020-July-17, 05:30, said:

. You are all completely right. What I have learned this week is how to take it slow. I figured that I might be able to finagle into 6NT without giving too much away, but in the end, outsmarted myself. Something which I'm sure you will all agree should not be too hard to do.

Were your opponents robots as well? In that case I don’t think it’s possible to give too much away. A robot wouldn’t know what to do with the information.

[hrothgar]

What was your plan if partner showed 1/4 keycards?

You're pretty much screwed.

Note that you want to be declaring the hand in Spades.
No never were able to explore strain.

Note also that partner is much more likely to hold two key cards than 5.
Bidding 7N is unilateral at best

[dsLawsd]

pilowsky, on 2020-July-17, 05:30, said:

. You are all completely right. What I have learned this week is how to take it slow. I figured that I might be able to finagle into 6NT without giving too much away, but in the end, outsmarted myself. Something which I'm sure you will all agree should not be too hard to do.

You are working your way into being a fine player.
The best reason to start with 1♠ is that you will play the contract more often from your side and rate to play it better from the South hand.
GIB does some strange things- not surprising given the programming limitations....

[RD350LC]

dsLawsd, on 2020-July-17, 14:48, said:

You are working your way into being a fine player.
The best reason to start with 1♠ is that you will play the contract more often from your side and rate to play it better from the South hand.
GIB does some strange things- not surprising given the programming limitations....

I have learned years ago that it is a rare hand that would merit going 4NT, especially after a minor suit opening bid. As a minimum, you do need 20+ hcp to consider this, and no worthless doubletons.
Generally, it is better to look for a fit in a major suit before making the key card inquiry. Remember, the main purpose of Blackwood is to keep you out of bad slams, not to get you to one.