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what is north's bid

#1 User is offline   phoenixmj 

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Posted 2020-July-09, 17:25



What is north's bid? The 3S bid is preemptive. Thanks in advance.
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-July-09, 19:15

4 or double? Double is ok, it doesn't promise hearts.

I think I prefer to show my diamond support.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-July-09, 20:38

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-July-09, 19:15, said:

4 or double? Double is ok, it doesn't promise hearts.

I think I prefer to show my diamond support.

Surely that Ďdoesnít promise heartsí is a matter of agreement. If one plays thrump doubles, this is fine. Partner will still bid 4H with 4 and no spade stop, but our 5D will be to play.

The danger is if one is not playing thrump doubles, then partner will bid 4H even with a spade stopper, and while 5D rates to be safe, it isnít perhaps as safe as would be 3N.

As for 4S, I prefer that to show a spade control. Otherwise, we are in a guessing game in terms of slam bidding.

As it happens, Iíd double rather than raise diamonds. In one partnership I do play thrump doubles, in the other, Iíd wing it and hope fo4 the best.
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#4 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 05:55

Sir,
Lacking any predefined agreement,We shall bid FIVE DIAMONDS.
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#5 User is offline   ritongilb 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 06:10

4 spades
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#6 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 06:14

5D if you don't have a regular partnership.
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#7 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 06:30

View Postmikeh, on 2020-July-09, 20:38, said:

Surely that Ďdoesnít promise heartsí is a matter of agreement. If one plays thrump doubles, this is fine. Partner will still bid 4H with 4 and no spade stop, but our 5D will be to play.

The danger is if one is not playing thrump doubles, then partner will bid 4H even with a spade stopper, and while 5D rates to be safe, it isnít perhaps as safe as would be 3N.

As for 4S, I prefer that to show a spade control. Otherwise, we are in a guessing game in terms of slam bidding.

As it happens, Iíd double rather than raise diamonds. In one partnership I do play thrump doubles, in the other, Iíd wing it and hope fo4 the best.


If opener lacks the [diamonds ace, 3NT is certainly not safer than 5[diamonds]. If opener bids 3NT whenever he stops , how will you know?
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#8 User is offline   phikappaph 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 06:56

View Postnudnikbp, on 2020-July-10, 06:14, said:

5D if you don't have a regular partnership.


I agree with the 5D bid as the preempt has pretty much removed finding out how many keycards the partnership has. Without specific understanding about what 4S or doubling means, 5D to me is the safer bid. If I were going to risk the hand on a left field bid, I would bid 6D. That probably is making a claim about spades which is false. If partner has 2 losing spades, bummer. So, 5D is my vote.
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 07:42

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-July-10, 06:30, said:

If opener lacks the [diamonds ace, 3NT is certainly not safer than 5[diamonds]. If opener bids 3NT whenever he stops , how will you know?




Partner is allowed to think. In any event, the odds are overwhelming that he has the diamond Ace, or two spade stoppers (if he bids 3N) or that the spade preemptor has no entry. Finally, if we lack the diamond Ace, 5D may not make either.

Let me know should you develop a bidding method that allows you to bid over preempt with 100% accuracy😊

Meanwhile, Iím playing what I see as the percentages. Btw, my biggest fear, for my suggested double, is not failing in 3N but missing slam should partner bid it. But I donít know how to bid slam with confidence opposite, say, Ax KJx Axxxx Jxx anyway. Preempt sometimes work, and I learned a long time ago that aiming to hit the perfect spot, in such auctions, is akin to chasing moonbeams.
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#10 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 08:52

View Postmikeh, on 2020-July-10, 07:42, said:

Partner is allowed to think. In any event, the odds are overwhelming that he has the diamond Ace, or two spade stoppers (if he bids 3N) or that the spade preemptor has no entry. Finally, if we lack the diamond Ace, 5D may not make either.

Let me know should you develop a bidding method that allows you to bid over preempt with 100% accuracy😊

Meanwhile, Iím playing what I see as the percentages. Btw, my biggest fear, for my suggested double, is not failing in 3N but missing slam should partner bid it. But I donít know how to bid slam with confidence opposite, say, Ax KJx Axxxx Jxx anyway. Preempt sometimes work, and I learned a long time ago that aiming to hit the perfect spot, in such auctions, is akin to chasing moonbeams.


5 will make way more ofteen than 3NT.

You are making my point: the subtle choice between games is unavailable now. And the minor will make way moree often.
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#11 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 09:26

View Postmikeh, on 2020-July-10, 07:42, said:

Partner is allowed to think. In any event, the odds are overwhelming that he has the diamond Ace, or two spade stoppers (if he bids 3N) or that the spade preemptor has no entry. Finally, if we lack the diamond Ace, 5D may not make either.

Let me know should you develop a bidding method that allows you to bid over preempt with 100% accuracy😊

Meanwhile, Iím playing what I see as the percentages. Btw, my biggest fear, for my suggested double, is not failing in 3N but missing slam should partner bid it. But I donít know how to bid slam with confidence opposite, say, Ax KJx Axxxx Jxx anyway. Preempt sometimes work, and I learned a long time ago that aiming to hit the perfect spot, in such auctions, is akin to chasing moonbeams.


Who cares about 100%? The question is 60%.

The right general agreement about high preempts of partner's opening is that raises below game are forcing and jump raises are slam tries.

Suppose the reds were switched. You open 1, and over 3 your partner, a stranger, bids 5. How do you take that? "Please bid slam with a control," right?

Peter Weichsel advocated that the jump raise to 5 of a minor should mean the same as a jump raise to 5 of a major in the same context.
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#12 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 10:37

There are three bids you can consider here: X, 4S, and 5D. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

To me:
X is cards, suggesting (but not guaranteeing 4H); partner ought to bid 3NT in preference to 4H with most hands with a spade stop
X then removing to diamonds is slammish with no spade control
4S is slammish with first or second round (probably a stiff if second-round) spade control
5D is just a game-going hand with no interest in 3NT and no slam interest (of course, if opener has a rock-crusher with a spade control, he is free to continue)

Double:
As MikeH pointed out, if you are playing so-called "thrump" doubles (another Bergen invention), then X works well here. It shows a game-forcing hand with (probably) no spade stop and asks partner to bid 3NT if he has a stop and thinks that appropriate. Otherwise, partner will bid 4C or 4H with four of them or lacking any of those, rebid his diamonds. If he doesn't bid 3NT, you will correct to diamonds, and partner will get the idea.

If X shows cards here and suggests but doesn't guarantee hearts (the way I play it), I'd also X. Same logic, really. Partner is likely to bid 3NT even with 4H if 3NT seems like a decent spot. When the opponents preempt, NT contracts are often very effective (too often the trumps break badly and the preemptor's partner is very short in preemptor's suit).

I wouldn't worry much about going set in 3NT. If partner lacks the Ad (which he is a big favorite to hold), he might very well have something other than Kx in spades, in which case you will still make your game if East has the Ad.

The only downside of double is that if partner bids 3NT, you might miss slam. If partner bid 3NT, I would be sorely tempted to bid 4D, showing slam interest with no spade control. I think I would resist that urge, but .... Oh well. Preempts work.


If X is strictly negative, then it depends how partner would take 5D over 4H. If he would take it as "Cancel that negative X; I have diamonds and a find hand (too good for a 5D bid originally), not H" then I would still X. If he would take it as a cue-bid with H as trump, I think I need to discuss system with partner.

4S:
To, 4S ought to show slam interest with a spade control. You don't have that here. If you bid 4S, how is partner supposed to know what to do?

5D:
This gives up on slam (unless opener has a huge hand), because there is no way for partner really to know whether I have a spade control. It shows a minimum game-going hand with (likely) no spade control and where 3NT doesn't look right. I would expect at least 6 diamonds for this bid.

If my partner could not be talked out of believing that I had 4H if I Xed, then I would bid 5D here, but I wouldn't like it. At least I would likely make a game and avoid a disaster.

Cheers,
Mike
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#13 User is offline   MaskyJean 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 13:45

5D. South likely has nothing in spades, has to have "all" the points in the other 3 suits for his opening. I think with 16 HCP, LHO passed, partner opened 2nd seat, we almost guarantee 9+ diamond fit, and ~29 HCP. I will suppress my spade "shortage" as irrelevant for slam and 11 trick game purposes. I think, 5D it is. If partner is "extremely short" in spades, partner may still bid slam.
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#14 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 16:43

4. You must show support, and you must set up a forcing pass situation.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-July-10, 19:18

View PostMaskyJean, on 2020-July-10, 13:45, said:

5D. South likely has nothing in spades, has to have "all" the points in the other 3 suits for his opening. I think with 16 HCP, LHO passed, partner opened 2nd seat, we almost guarantee 9+ diamond fit, and ~29 HCP. I will suppress my spade "shortage" as irrelevant for slam and 11 trick game purposes. I think, 5D it is. If partner is "extremely short" in spades, partner may still bid slam.


5D isn't awful by any means, but what if partner has:

KQx Kxx AJxx Jxx

5D is going down on a ruff; 3NT will make four. Don't you want partner to be able to bid 3NT with hands like these?

That's why I think a X here should guarantee cards (game force) and only mildly suggest four hearts. A lot of times on these sorts of hands you're better off in 3NT even if you have a 4-4 H fit.
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#16 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2020-July-11, 08:27

View Postphoenixmj, on 2020-July-09, 17:25, said:



What is north's bid? The 3S bid is preemptive. Thanks in advance.


I would bid 5 setting the suit and inviting partner to go to slam
if he has anything extra in reserve for his bid. The spade pre-empt is bothersome
but that is the nature of the game. The opponents are there to obstruct you.
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#17 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2020-July-11, 14:00


PhoenixMJ "What is north's bid? The 3S bid is preemptive."
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 4 = CUE S/T with support.
2. 5 = NAT Slight underbid.
3. 6 = NAT Overbid.
4. Double = NEG. But without discussion, partner might assume 4+ s.
5. 4 = ART Gerber (In some partnerships, I play 4 = Key-card Gerber, agreeing the most likely suit, whenever it sensibly could be. In that context it's a fair effort :) )

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#18 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-July-11, 14:34

Nasty nasty question

I suspect that I would double

I admit to being terribly tempted to just bid 3N
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#19 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-July-11, 17:41

View PostPhilG007, on 2020-July-11, 08:27, said:

I would bid 5 setting the suit and inviting partner to go to slam
if he has anything extra in reserve for his bid. The spade pre-empt is bothersome
but that is the nature of the game. The opponents are there to obstruct you.

But will partner know not to bid slam with 2 losers?

I think 5 must strongly urge slam with control and demand a pass with none.
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#20 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-July-11, 18:44

View Postnige1, on 2020-July-11, 14:00, said:

5. 4 = ART Gerber (In some partnerships, I play 4 = Key-card Gerber, agreeing the most likely suit, whenever it sensibly could be. In that context it's a fair effort :) ) [/hv]


No no no no no no. How the HELL can 4 be gerber here? That is just DUMB.
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