[Laird]

Hello All

Another of my disasterous bids....

W N E S
- 2d* x - * 2d(multi)
2h 4s 5d 5s
- - 6d - n/s vul
- 6s p p
?

As West you hold... What is your bid/ why?

s 8 3
h A 9 6 3
d K 5 4
c J 5 3 2

John :-[

[pbleighton]

My simple-minded analysis:

This seems like a battle of the sacrificers. You want to lose this battle. Pass at IMPs, double at MPs.

Who knows

Please post the result after you get some replies.

Peter

[inquiry]

Quote

Hello All

Another of my disasterous bids....

W N E S
- 2d x -
2h 4s 5d 5s
- - 6d -
- 6s p p
?

As West you hold... What is your bid/ why?

s 8 3
h A 9 6 3
d K 5 4
c J 5 3 2

John :-[

Some assistance in the bidding would be nice. Obviously 2D was not natural. I assume some kind of conventional bid. Probably multi. Double of 2D must be meant to show diamonds, but if so, why did you bid?

4S is an odd bid over a tame 2H, if multi. I mean, if West has a weak hand and a bunch of spades, why not just open 3 or 4S, why mess with multi? But it is not clear if North is weak or strong.

Partner probably showed a good hand to double and bid to 5D and then 6D all by himself when you COULD have a stiff diamond (or less) and 0 hcp. Knowing the vul might help, but here are my thoughts at different vuls....

If we are vul and they are not, partner simply would not be bidding 5D except with expectations to make. I take his pass over 6S as "forcing", showing first round control in spades and inviting grand slam. If he is making a forcing pass with me holding HEART ACE and DIAMOND KING, I just have to bid the grand slam.

If they are vul and we are not vul... the same kind of rules apply but to North. You know NORTH is not bidding 4S and then 6S as sacrafice. In this case 2D must be some kind of opening that can include a big hand with long, strong spades and excellent values. Partner must have something like a bunch of diamonds and nothing else (he probably should not have doubled 2D, but rather barraged with diamonds immediately rather than slowly if this is the case) (because South needs something to bid a vul vs non-vul 5S), and you do hold 1.5 QT on your own. Thus in this situation, your partner's bidding has allowed south to make a "FORCING" Pass over 6D to show diamond control and invite six spades. It is easy to imagine that south has a diamond void on this auction (partner clearly has 8 or 9 diamonds, and you are looking at three yourself and must be broke in the other suits given your heart ACE and diamond King). IF this is the case, the heart ACE is likely your sides only trick unless partner can ruff a heart.

So when they are vul and you are not, time for LOTT and the rules of freaks. They have at least a 10 card spade fit, probably 11. You have at least a 11 card diamond fit, maybe 12. Given the extra ordinary legnth, you know that minor suit problem doesn't exist for either side. Round up to the higher card number due to solid nature of the fits for both sides so total tricks are 11.5+10.5 or 22. If they can make 6S (12 tricks) you are down only 3 or maybe 4 in seven diamonds (law doens't hold so good at 6/7 level as it does at 3/5 level). If 6S is down one (and pass or double would be big winner), you will be down only 2 or 3 in 7Dx. Since down three (-500) is better than their game (-650), I would bid 7D's as a sac if they are vul and we are not.

Now if both sides are vul, I will expect partner to have a trick outside of diamonds and a fair hand. I will double 6Spades. If neither side is vul, I will simply pass out of confusion (given no explaination of the bidding), because i don't know who has what.

Ben

[Free]

Hmmm, if 2D is multi, then the jump to 4S is strong with 10+ playing tricks, and the double should be with D, not to show majors (you have time enough to bid your majors the next round). So after this entire bidding, we don't know if south has a trick, or just some spades. Since he didn't bid at 2D - Dbl - ? he has no invitational hand. East on the other hand probably bids his 5D and later 6D with a good suit and some playing strength.

I think I'd pass, since you only bring 1,5 real tricks to your partner (HA and DK). Normally ops would've played 5S, but now they were lifted 1 more. I just don't see why I should balance after a risky balance. And double doesn't give you a lot of extra points (MP and IMP) but you can lose a lot.
And an extra reason: you probably won't be able to ruff a spade in your hand... You probably won't be able to make 7D, and 6S won't be easy to.

[Laird]

Thank you all for responding and for providing such stimulating insights...

Sorry about missing details ... yes 2d was multi and n/s was vulnerable..

s h d c

N AKQJ92 KQ Q8 AQ9

S 10754 J852 K10876

E 6 1074 AJ1097623 4

W 83 A963 K54 J532


Bidding
W N E S
- 2d* x - * 2d(multi)
2h 4s 5d 5s
- - 6d - n/s vul
- 6s p p
?

My quandry was whether to enter bidding at 7 level as a sacrifice.... for -4 and 800 points or allow them to play and hope to put down contract... I passed and allowed them to make 6s for 1430.
I was mildly rebuked by partner for not taking 7d.... and I see her point of view :-[. She had done nearly all the running by herself I could have supported her some more at the end.
Another point if partner doesnt enter bidding at 5d and allow 4s to be played we get a good score.

When to bid when to shut up....arrrgh!

Kind regards

John:-)

[luis]

East made two terrible bids: Double and 6d.
Double is very doubtful with a hand that only has a bunch of diamonds, the nebulous 2d opening by the opps might lead them to a lot of problems if you can preempt. A 4d bid is clear cut and there maybe good arguments to a 5d bid by East.
The other terrible bid is 6d in a hand that you know belongs to them after pushing them to the 5 level why force them to play the slam? This slam was bid by east not by North-South.

[inquiry]

Quote

s h d c

N AKQJ92 KQ Q8 AQ9

S 10754 J852 K10876

E 6 1074 AJ1097623 4

W 83 A963 K54 J532


Bidding
W N E S
- 2d* x - * 2d(multi)
2h 4s 5d 5s
- - 6d - n/s vul
- 6s p p
?

Phew.... your partner complained about you? No points, and a preemptive hand at favorable vul...what the heck was the double? Bid 3D or 4D or 5D, and all will be well. This auction allowed... North to show value, south to show fit, and then make a forcing pass.... I agree with Luis, YOUR partner bid this slam for them. North had no way to get there with two losing diamonds until his partners forcing pass.

Interesting 10 spades plus 11 diamonds. That is 21. NS can win 12 tricks... so 21-12 means EW can win 9 tricks. 6S makes, 7D down 4, just as the LAW would have predicted.

[Laird]

Hello again

Can you please explain forcing pass in this situation?
How do you know its a forcing pass?

Whilst e/w bidding was indeed rather indisciplined ( who said wild....I didnt say wild ... and yet there is a certain intuitive logic( although I hadnt realised that this could be an optional double of 2d). As partner, once I saw situation had gone pear - shaped, I should have recognised the situation and continued the pre empt rather than meekly wait to be turned over?

John

[inquiry]

Quote

Hello again

Can you please explain forcing pass in this situation? How do you know its a forcing pass?

1) Forcing pass in this situation. The 2D opener has shown a game forcing hand (2D here clearly strong after the vul 4S bid).

2) After we have announced game value, we either play the hand, or we double what they play. So any pass of their last bid is forcing. We have to play or defended doubled.

3) South bid 5S shows an offensive hand (with defense hand, he would have passed or doubled). South, with a Diamond void, could have passed 5D, then when (if) partner had doubled (he would double or bid), South could have bid 5S to suggest diamond control and slam interest. As weak as south was, the immediate 5S bid showing an offensive hand was probably better bid.

4) Over 6D, south without a diamond control would have to double. Since in this situation, a pass invites partner to bid on. South, who failed to make a forcing pass and pull over 5D, and now makes a forcing pass here, is showing just this type of hand.