BBO Discussion Forums: Spade trap - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Spade trap

#1 User is offline   louisix 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 2020-June-24

Posted 2020-June-24, 00:42

I have met an interesting board some day ago and I am still curious about the problem existed during the bidding.

North
AT8xx
A
AKJ2
Q97
South
9xx
K8x
Qx
AKJxx

without any interfering, the bidding should not be much arguable at the first 5 bid. Most of the natural 2/1 system the bidding will go:
N S
1S 2C
2D 2S
3C

And here comes the problem. At the first insight I would say 3S is the choice for south, waiting for more information from north.
But unfortunately as the card line, once the bidding confirms spade as the trump, it would much disaster while 6N is easy and 7C just need a good heart break (not worse than 6-3).

It is quite strange to me like 3S is the correct but the dead choice right there. Is there any route to switch to club contract after that?

Extra question: when the trump quality is bad, do you still raise partner major suit? or when would you raise and when would you not raise?
0

#2 User is offline   FelicityR 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 891
  • Joined: 2012-October-26
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2020-June-24, 01:53

I agree it's difficult to avoid the slam. However, once you have set the trump suit with 2 - (3) I hardly think that 3 is the most informative bid available. It does suggest better than 9xx. I would plump for 3NT here. Tell partner you are an about minimum 2/1 force as responder and that you have a balanced hand and a guard.

Maybe later in the bidding North - and where it goes from there is open to interpretation - may realise that the raise is based on preference in the suit as opposed strength, and settle for the NT slam instead. But, as I said at the beginning, except if you are in an experienced partnership with a lot of control bidding available (such as Precision, etc) it may still be difficult to avoid the slam.
0

#3 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,637
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-June-24, 03:20

To me bids after 2 would be control bids, so I wouldn't have bid 3. No idea how to find clubs, but the bidding might have gone something like..

1S - 2C
2D - 2S
3D (denying control) - 3H (showing + controls)
3S - 4C
4N - 5D
5H - 5S

but I'm still not able to count 12 tricks; South might have 4 clubs, or the Q instead of the Q, so I'm probably giving up; I'm sure there is a better solution. I always find slams hard to bid when side queens are important.

Aside - what would 5N mean after the 5 queen denial show in this sequence? Pick a slam I guess, so not appropriate here.

Edit - interesting; after some research I've discovered three level bids shouldn't be control bids here. Learn something every day..
0

#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,227
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-June-24, 04:03

Not playing 2/1 you might start 1-2-2-2-3 and now you have a fighting chance of playing in clubs, not least because partner has at most 1 heart and we're ruffing them in the short hand.

We would actually start 1-2-2N(gf not necess bal)-3(5+) and now again with a bad spade suit in the context of a good hand, N will be interested in clubs. a possible auction :

1(4+)-2(not GF)
2N(GF not necessarily bal)-3(5+)
3(nat, guarantees 5+)-3
4-4(aces)
4(0/3)-4(Q?)
5(yes and K)-5N (something I can't otherwise ask about, still interested in grand, denies K/Q)
7 the only reason for the 5N bid must be that if we can run 4+ he wants to be in 7, he knows my heart holding, could have bid 5 with a spade honour and he must have the Q. I can actually pretty much exactly construct his hand, he can see the issue with entries so will only plan on one heart ruff, so must have the K or a 6th club. If he was scrambling around for a trick, he could bid 5 and I'd bid 5 with the K.
0

#5 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,318
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2020-June-24, 09:21

Sir,
A certain Mrs.QUIXOTE (name imaginary) from US was my partner.I opened 1Spade and her RHO overcalled 2Heart.Her hand was 1054A852AQJ10Q2.My question is what should be her bid? One has to remember that your partnership is only for 2 deals and so "just a common sense bid" is what you may.
0

#6 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,273
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2020-June-24, 11:27


LouisIX asks how can we avoid the slam and reach 6N or, even better 7?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hands rotated to make West dealer. IMO...
- It's difficult to reach the good slams, without inspired views.
- Cyberyeti's 2 rebid seems to give the partnership a chance but
- it's hard to avoid agreeing , at some stage.
- The auction is likely to peter-out, like this.

0

#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,227
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-June-24, 12:32

View Postnige1, on 2020-June-24, 11:27, said:


LouisIX asks how can we avoid the slam and reach 6N or, even better 7?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hands rotated to make West dealer. IMO...
- It's difficult to reach the good slams, without inspired views.
- Cyberyeti's 2 rebid seems to give the partnership a chance but
- it's hard to avoid agreeing , at some stage.
- The auction is likely to peter-out, like this.



I agree it's hard, the key is for W to realise E has 5 or more clubs, and that ruffing hearts in the short hand is important, The key for E is to know W has a 5143 with 3 aces and the K to make 6.

If you play a 5 card spade, can you actually have 3 spades to an honour here or would you have raised immediately ? I ask because 4N sees way premature. I think 3N is the bid over 3. It is vanishingly unlikely you're going to play there, you're just suggesting a stiff ace of hearts in a 5143 probably with indifferent spades, and it's better than 4, now partner will bid 4 and you can investigate the right slam.
0

#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,185
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-June-24, 19:17

In the OP auction, after 3 opener could bid 5NT. Finding a club grand is hard, but this way they will at least find the small slam in clubs.

If South bids 3NT instead of 3 reaching 6NT is possible.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#9 User is offline   louisix 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 2020-June-24

Posted 2020-June-25, 21:52

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-June-24, 12:32, said:

I agree it's hard, the key is for W to realise E has 5 or more clubs, and that ruffing hearts in the short hand is important, The key for E is to know W has a 5143 with 3 aces and the K to make 6.

If you play a 5 card spade, can you actually have 3 spades to an honour here or would you have raised immediately ? I ask because 4N sees way premature. I think 3N is the bid over 3. It is vanishingly unlikely you're going to play there, you're just suggesting a stiff ace of hearts in a 5143 probably with indifferent spades, and it's better than 4, now partner will bid 4 and you can investigate the right slam.

IMO...
The problem is East will not be motivated after knowing West is 5143, because East K here against a singleton will be downgraded. (and of course East can never know West singleton is A).
As the result, even if West bid 3NT after the 3S, East will probably signoff at 4S and now West have to make decision all by his own now.
0

#10 User is offline   louisix 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 2020-June-24

Posted 2020-June-25, 21:59

View Postnige1, on 2020-June-24, 11:27, said:


LouisIX asks how can we avoid the slam and reach 6N or, even better 7?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hands rotated to make West dealer. IMO...
- It's difficult to reach the good slams, without inspired views.
- Cyberyeti's 2 rebid seems to give the partnership a chance but
- it's hard to avoid agreeing , at some stage.
- The auction is likely to peter-out, like this.


7 is nearly impossible to reach, but IMO 6NT is much more easier to reach, compare to 6.
The reason I mentioned 7 is to emphasize the horrible spade trap LOL
0

#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,227
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-June-26, 02:04

View Postlouisix, on 2020-June-25, 21:52, said:

IMO...
The problem is East will not be motivated after knowing West is 5143, because East K here against a singleton will be downgraded. (and of course East can never know West singleton is A).
As the result, even if West bid 3NT after the 3S, East will probably signoff at 4S and now West have to make decision all by his own now.


If W bids 3N, he has a singleton and a stop, you know he has a stiff ace of hearts
0

#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,173
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-June-26, 05:55

Hands like this are one reason that Fred recommends a 2/1 response followed by supporting the major to show a good suit. His structure then uses a natural 2NT response to compensate for this. If 2 is just a noise on the way to game then this becomes much more difficult.

Bidding 2 on Responder's second turn seems to me to be a complete non-starter. I feel that only someone looking at both hands would even consider this. One thing that noone has yet mentioned though is a 3 jump. How do 2/1ers usually play this? If it were defined as 3+ spades and 5+ good clubs, this would seem to negate some of the impact of playing 2 nebulously. In a well-designed system it ought now to be possible for Opener to realise that the source of tricks lies in clubs rather than spades and continue accordingly. Finally, 3NT at Responder's third turn looks more than reasonable. That would probably lead, eventually, to some kind of choice of slam sequence (4NT - 5 - 6 perhaps?) where it should be clear to avoid the spade slam.

In the end though, all of these sequences involve a fair amount of finger-waving and guesswork. If you want to reach these slams with confidence then the answer is to play a relay system. Then it is all extremely simple.
(-: Zel :-)

half-wit -- Chas_P the racist
1

#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,227
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-June-26, 06:21

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-June-26, 05:55, said:

Hands like this are one reason that Fred recommends a 2/1 response followed by supporting the major to show a good suit. His structure then uses a natural 2NT response to compensate for this. If 2 is just a noise on the way to game then this becomes much more difficult.

Bidding 2 on Responder's second turn seems to me to be a complete non-starter. I feel that only someone looking at both hands would even consider this. One thing that noone has yet mentioned though is a 3 jump. How do 2/1ers usually play this? If it were defined as 3+ spades and 5+ good clubs, this would seem to negate some of the impact of playing 2 nebulously. In a well-designed system it ought now to be possible for Opener to realise that the source of tricks lies in clubs rather than spades and continue accordingly. Finally, 3NT at Responder's third turn looks more than reasonable. That would probably lead, eventually, to some kind of choice of slam sequence (4NT - 5 - 6 perhaps?) where it should be clear to avoid the spade slam.

In the end though, all of these sequences involve a fair amount of finger-waving and guesswork. If you want to reach these slams with confidence then the answer is to play a relay system. Then it is all extremely simple.


2 is absolutely normal if you play Acol as none of the spade raises are forcing, I agree it's not right if you play 2/1.
0

#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,173
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2020-June-26, 06:36

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-June-26, 06:21, said:

2 is absolutely normal if you play Acol as none of the spade raises are forcing, I agree it's not right if you play 2/1.

If you rebid 2 on Opener's hand in the BBO Acol Club you will frequently play there, so 3 would be needed. If you play a more modern style where a 2/1 promises a rebid or is forcing to 2NT, then 2 is indeed fine, but then after the third round call of 3 you are no better off than the 2/1ers after 2. Suggesting that Opener would decide to switch to clubs at this point is just cloud cuckoo land.
(-: Zel :-)

half-wit -- Chas_P the racist
0

#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,227
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-June-26, 06:47

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-June-26, 06:36, said:

If you rebid 2 on Opener's hand in the BBO Acol Club you will frequently play there, so 3 would be needed. If you play a more modern style where a 2/1 promises a rebid or is forcing to 2NT, then 2 is indeed fine, but then after the third round call of 3 you are no better off than the 2/1ers after 2. Suggesting that Opener would decide to switch to clubs at this point is just cloud cuckoo land.


I absolutely disagree, but I play a slightly bent form of acol, but 2 would never be passed by anybody I know (what shape would you have ?), I play a GF 2N here as I showed above, 3 for us would be 2 good suits, not a good hand, NF but rarely passed something like AQJxx, x, KQ10xx, xx.

Opener can see that usually game is better in spades, but a slam is better in clubs, so can offer it.
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users