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6-5 in the majors and opening with the 5 card major

#1 User is offline   Wainfleet 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 22:19


My partner was North. We made 9 tricks with a score of +5.1 IMPs
I suggested to partner that he should have opened 1 but he argued that he would not be able to bid Hearts then Spades due to insufficient HCP for a reverse so would only be able to rebid 2, and I would never know he had 5 Spades. He felt that he had only lied about the 6th Heart but in doing so allowed me to choose best suit without going up a level.
It's hard to argue with him when we got a top.

1. Is it ever right to distort your opening bid and rebid in this way?


2. I know from other threads on BBO that the 16 HCP 'rule' for reversing is more of a guideline than a rule. Should partner have reversed even with just 11 HCP, given that he had such a great shape?
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 22:57

View PostWainfleet, on 2020-June-22, 22:19, said:


1. Is it ever right to distort your opening bid and rebid in this way?


Yes.

Quote

2. I know from other threads on BBO that the 16 HCP 'rule' for reversing is more of a guideline than a rule. Should partner have reversed even with just 11 HCP, given that he had such a great shape?


I must admit I would be tempted.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#3 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 22:59

I don't think there is a "right or wrong" answer when it comes to these types of hands. Good 6-5 hands are far more powerful than just HCP, so reverses can be made lighter than a strict HCP requirement. But with just an 11-count and two singletons, I would have bid 1 as well.

Advice from some more respected sources:

Larry Cohen suggests 1 when holding AJxxx AQxxxx x x.

and Bridge World Standard says "With a minimum-range five-six hand, open in the higher and shorter suit only when the long suits are adjacent." Which therefore advises 1 here as well.
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#4 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 23:03

If you reverse with a minimum 5-6, at the very least you want good suits. If you move the 10s into the majors, your hand improves significantly and the hand starts to look a bit more like a reverse. But here your partner's choice looks pretty good.
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#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-June-23, 01:31

View PostWainfleet, on 2020-June-22, 22:19, said:

1. Is it ever right to distort your opening bid and rebid in this way?
2. I know from other threads on BBO that the 16 HCP 'rule' for reversing is more of a guideline than a rule. Should partner have reversed even with just 11 HCP, given that he had such a great shape?


1. It is partly a matter of style. I don't like lying to partner about my shape. But yes, I have sometimes done this and probably would on the given hand. A reasonable alternative on the example hand, is to open 1 and rebid hearts - this heart suit is playable opposite a singleton. I think that I would rather pass and come in later with a two-suited over-call than reverse on an 11-count.
2. If you reverse without high-card strength, it will be difficult for partner to judge whether to play or defend if the auction becomes competitive. I like to promise 17 HCPs with a reverse after a one-level response (e.g. a natural non-forcing 1NT response if that is part of your system). I might borrow a point or two for shape, but an 11-count is never a reverse for us.
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#6 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-June-23, 07:17

View PostWainfleet, on 2020-June-22, 22:19, said:

I suggested to partner that he should have opened 1 but he argued that he would not be able to bid Hearts then Spades due to insufficient HCP for a reverse so would only be able to rebid 2, and I would never know he had 5 Spades.


If there are insufficient HCPs for a reverse, then you don't reverse: simple. Sometimes opening 1 will be the right thing to do, sometimes opening 1 will be. Though when you have a hand with like this 6/5 I would open 1 here as the suit is longer and better than the suit. In a contract you have two quick tricks, and in a contract just one.

If you miss a fit then that's unlucky, but if you don't have a fit then it's going to be awkward to convince your partner that your are better than your . Would you prefer to end up in a game, even possibly a slam, in a 5-2 fit rather than a 6-2 one?
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-June-25, 07:39

One of the things you have to accept in bridge is that some hands are not good enough to show everything and you therefore need to prioritise. If you open 1, you are going to have to hide the 5 good spades. There is nothing wrong with this - the hearts are plenty good enough - but it means we will likely miss a 5-3 fit. If we open 1 then we are going to be hiding the 5th and 6th hearts. That means we might easily miss a 5-3 or 6-2 heart fit and will sometimes play in 5-2 spades when 6-3 hearts was available. Which is best? Well that depends on partner's hand. In truth I would not criticise a beginner for either choice - both approaches are fine.

If you want to show the hand fully then it needs to be sold as "strong", giving us the bidding sequence 1->2->3. It might seem crazy for an 11hcp hand to be strong but if partner bid 4 or a major after this I would be feeling pretty good, as offensively the hand is as powerful as many 16 counts. The biggest problem comes when partner continues with 3NT. Without a fit the hand loses much of its luster and we will probably go down. A second problem that should be noted with the reversing sequence is that partner will often look for slam with unsuitable hands expecting more strength. Whereas the hand is fine for game, for a slam it will often have too many shortcomings unless partner has just the right cards.

Notice that your partner actually sold their hand as "strong" despite opening 1 - the 3 bid is inconsistent with their opening bid. If you have this shape and want to bid 3 times, start with 1!

Finally, I will note that bidding theorists have recognised this issue and there is a conventional solution to it. When I was a junior, it was reasonably popular to play the auctions 1 - 1NT; 3 and 1 - 2m; 3 as "super-reverses", showing a 5-6 hand with too few hcp to reverse. That method has largely fallen out of favour and hardly anyone plays this way any more. And, to be clear, I am not suggesting that you do either. I just wanted to show you that this is something that some players find serious enough to devote a special auction to. And when you find these issues yourself as a beginner, it usually means you are on a good path and thinking about the game in the right way. Keep it up - I promise you it will not be the last such example you find where breaking the rules can be a good idea!
(-: Zel :-)
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-June-25, 08:08

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-June-25, 07:39, said:

<snip>
Finally, I will note that bidding theorists have recognised this issue and there is a conventional solution to it. When I was a junior, it was reasonably popular to play the auctions 1 - 1NT; 3 and 1 - 2m; 3 as "super-reverses", showing a 5-6 hand with too few hcp to reverse. That method has largely fallen out of favour and hardly anyone plays this way any more. And, to be clear, I am not suggesting that you do either. I just wanted to show you that this is something that some players find serious enough to devote a special auction to. And when you find these issues yourself as a beginner, it usually means you are on a good path and thinking about the game in the right way. Keep it up - I promise you it will not be the last such example you find where breaking the rules can be a good idea!

If I recall correctly, Gromöller Kirmse used to play reverse on shapley hands, did they have conv. agreements?
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-June-25, 14:22

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2020-June-25, 08:08, said:

If I recall correctly, Gromöller Kirmse used to play reverse on shapley hands, did they have conv. agreements?

Their CC just says Lebensohl after a reverse, so I would assume from that nothing special.
(-: Zel :-)
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-June-30, 02:43

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-June-23, 07:17, said:

If there are insufficient HCPs for a reverse, then you don't reverse: simple.


This is not a HCP thing it's playing strength, of course I'd reverse on KQJ10x, KQJ10xxx, x, void
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