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Four of a major When to bid it

Poll: I have hearts and some points (30 member(s) have cast votes)

What to bid?

  1. 1C (2 votes [6.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

  2. 1C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 1H (26 votes [86.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 86.67%

  4. 1NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. 2NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. 4H (2 votes [6.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

  7. !pass not vul v vul (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#21 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 03:47

Unfortunately, although I can locate the tourney record I am unable to find the full hand records with the bidding. All that I can tell you is that the sample movie for the 2 people that bid and made 6 shows 1 as the opening. Here's the link.
14 people bid and made 4 +2 South here is the sample movie with a bid of 4 PPP. followed by another 14 with who got the same result as me bidding 4 PPP. The 2 people at 5 reached it after starting with a bid of 1. 6 people reversed into 6 and also didn't make it after starting with 1. One person went off 1 in 4 hearts after opening 1. and just for completeness, 1 person hit 6-2 after starting with 1. So, in summary, it seems like the best bid to find the best contract quickly in this case at least is 4. Since I don't have access to the results of the people that won the tourney, it's impossible for me to tell the extent to which this deal affected the outcome. Presumably, the results of each stratum are intercalated equally to achieve the final result? I don't know.
My view is that it's the average result that counts over time. Stephen Bradbury is an icon in Australia because he planned his campaign from the rear. I think he's great. I am no fan of ice-skating but I can see a lesson when there's one to be learned. Bradbury reminds all of us that one day we might get a chance!
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; Wanneer elk gezegend ding dat u vasthoudt is gemaakt van zilver of van goud, verlangt u naar eenvoudig tin; Lätt som en plätt
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#22 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 03:53

if a partner opens this hand 4!H we have a problem, I bid issue is for the player to appreciate 4!H I NOT an opening hand, so this plaayer needs to understaand how poor the bid is.
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#23 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 04:45

View PostVampyr, on 2020-June-21, 16:16, said:

I am not entirely convinced that bridge is difficult to learn because conventions go by different names in different places.

In any case, this hand is far too strong for a 4 opener and in fact I wouldn't even use a bid showing a "good" 4-minor preemtp. (3NT rather than 4m, not that it matters)


The late Iajn MacLeod(and following him Peter Donovan) wrote a book entitled "Bridge is an Easy Game"
and "Bridge is Still an Easy Game" They were both correct even though that might be doubted in the
preliminary stages(!) As in any game or sport,the basic principles are all important. A mathematician had to start
by learning 2 +2 =4 a musician had to learn the scales,a golfer had to know how to stance and how. to grip the club.
Learn the fundamentals and practicing and the sky's the limit Posted Image
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#24 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 04:48

Hi,

I have no idea how to win BBO touraments, 80+ (high 70+%) seem to be required.
But after the diamond attack, you should make 12, ..., you dont want the 9 to be
covered, and if the King showes, you have an eays finesse against the king, and if not,
diamonds 33 and the fact, that the guy with Ace of trumps cant attack your club entry
should do it. And the add. 12th trick is worth 80% MP, instead of 42%

Taking the presents is important in MP games, against all humans, but also against
robots.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#25 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 04:51

The Dean of my Medical School was once asked: "What is the curriculum?" he replied, "Forget about the books and lectures - the examination is the curriculum". Gus Fraenkel was a pretty smart man. I learned that simple fact when I was 17. It applies to everything.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; Wanneer elk gezegend ding dat u vasthoudt is gemaakt van zilver of van goud, verlangt u naar eenvoudig tin; Lätt som en plätt
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#26 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 05:00

I'm keen to know how a top pair would bid this hand particularly how South would open in the circumstances. Posted Image
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#27 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 05:03

Hi,

4H was an offbeat action, but it worked on the given hand.
If West gets the option to show a preemptive spade hand, he will do this,
and this may lead to non diamond lead.


With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#28 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 05:11

Opening 1 might have worked.

Test (againt basic robots):

The same tactic backfired in yesterday's BBO Forums Sunday Daylong, though:

.

:(
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#29 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 05:21

It's an action that I have on my card and play happily all the time with some partners. My partners that I use it with use the cover card method to decide whether or not to raise me to slam or bid 4NT. Statements such as "this is an offbeat action" or sentences that begin with the only possible course of action with this hand... generally lead me to think that there must definitely be a better way of doing it. "this plaayer needs to understaand how poor the bid is" is another one that is sure to make me think that I am on to something useful!
I have seen convention cards that are so dense that you need a power tool to lift them. That kind of bridge is not for me. Tarrasch might approve but Botvinnik would not and Kotov would detest it.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; Wanneer elk gezegend ding dat u vasthoudt is gemaakt van zilver of van goud, verlangt u naar eenvoudig tin; Lätt som en plätt
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#30 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 05:47

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-June-22, 05:21, said:

It's an action that I have on my card and play happily all the time with some partners.
<snip>
I have seen convention cards that are so dense that you need a power tool to lift them. That kind of bridge is not for me. Tarrasch might approve but Botvinnik would not and Kotov would detest it.

And it did work, the 12th trick was there for the taking, this assumes you got the diamond lead.

If you want to win tournaments, you cant play by the book all the time, you have to mixe it up a bit,
but if you do, than this can back fire, the book will give you EV+ or EV=, but usually not EV++, to win
you need some EV++, and than make sure you dont blow it. But going for EV++ risks lots of EV-.
If the winds favor you, than you win, otherwise not.

And: Tarrasch was dogmatic, but I am not so sure Botvinnik was a big fan of off beat actions, Kotov maybe.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#31 User is online   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 08:05

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-June-21, 17:32, said:

Last week I decided to open 2 with x-AKQxxxx-void-KQJxx.

Needless to say, partner bids a lot of spades and opps a lot of diamonds, and it ended up being partner who had to make the last semi-blind guess.

With a partner who can forgive a bit of masterminding I think I would just open 6. I believe that's the best bid. Maybe if you play Namyats or something similar you could use that also. 5 may be better if you have discussed with p what that means. But hoping for an intelligent auction is not realistic.


But of course the books say that opening 6 of a suit shows a hand whose only loser is the missing A or K of trumps.
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#32 User is online   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 08:14

View Postaawk, on 2020-June-21, 01:26, said:

Playing for IMPS i would open at 4 level showing a 7-8 card major with 5 LTC.

The problem is that partner does not know how many aces you hold.

To counter this problem you open 4/ holding 0-1 aces and 4/ holding 2-4 aces.

After 4 you bid as follows :

4 = transfer to 4 being to play with 8 LTC or worse, or being slam forcing with 1-4 aces and 7 LTC or better and you want partner to play
4 = slam forcing with 0 aces and 7 LTC or better (partner pass with 2 aces and bids slam forcing with 3-4 aces)
4nt = 5-RKC holding 1-4 aces 7 LTC or better (doesn't matter who is playing)
5// = 4-EBW holding 1-3 aces 7 LTC or better with a void in , or
5/nt = trump quantitative asking for 6/7 if partner holds AK/AQ/KQ in

After 4 - 4 - 4 you bid as follows :

pass = to play
rest = slam forcing holding 1-4 aces

After 4 you bid as follows :

pass = to play
rest = slam forcing holding 2-4 aces

You loose a preemptive bid in a minor at 4 level but that is a price I am willing to pay.


Half your possible suit slams will be in a minor. You provide an elaborate structure for the other half.
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#33 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 08:20

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-June-22, 08:05, said:

But of course the books say that opening 6 of a suit shows a hand whose only loser is the missing A or K of trumps.

That book probably should be put back on the shelf. That hand is vanishingly rare, not all that difficult to manage when it comes up, and draws a blueprint for the opposition if you do open it. On the other hand, there are many more hands where you might decide to turn the auction into a guessing game and not having the bid available becomes problematic.

I'm not saying this is the hand for it, but I could cope if partner decided to do it.
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#34 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 12:59

You have to separate real bridge from robot bridge. They are different games.

In real bridge, playing some sort of standard (not big club) system, I would open 1H in first, second, or fourth seats without much thought. You don't preempt with two outside Aces, NAMYATS or no. Third seat I think 4H is reasonable.

In robot bridge, however, you have to be mindful of the fact that you have the best hand. Partner has at most 15 HCP, but probably far less. So opening 4H to create action isn't so outrageous.

Personally, even vs the GIBbers I don't think this is a good hand for a 4H opener. First, you are white vs. red, so preventing the opponents from finding their spade fit might be a loser rather than a winner. Second, you are relatively balanced outside H. I would be more inclined to open 4H if I were 74.

As for the play, I'm going to assume East withheld the Kd at trick one. Otherwise, a competent baboon (or should I say GIBbon) can make 6. The only way to make 6 if East keeps his Kd is to take advantage of the fact that West has a club void to run a minor suit squeeze against East. Draw trump, and when West can't break things up by leading a club, it's all over. Play the As, and run the trump. Now play a club to the Ace. Come down to:

K
--
Qx

opposite

--
--
Ax
J

When you play the Ks, East is cooked. He can't keep both the guarded Kd and a club honor.

Cheers,
Mike
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#35 User is online   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 14:35

View Postsfi, on 2020-June-22, 08:20, said:

That book probably should be put back on the shelf. That hand is vanishingly rare, not all that difficult to manage when it comes up, and draws a blueprint for the opposition if you do open it. On the other hand, there are many more hands where you might decide to turn the auction into a guessing game and not having the bid available becomes problematic.

I'm not saying this is the hand for it, but I could cope if partner decided to do it.


No "that book." All books that mention the opening.
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#36 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 17:17

Sir,
I shall open it 4 CLUB..I need not elaborate on it.
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#37 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-June-22, 17:17

duplicate deleted
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