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Would you risk a x here? Low level double of 2d overcall

#1 User is offline   fraiseap 

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Posted 2020-June-13, 04:44

Playing a weak NT and 4CM my partner opened a club and rebid 1NT after 1H from me and a 2d overcall. The 1NT bid promises a stopper in daimonds. The question was, do I double? I did and the contract made. I reasoned that my partner was likely to have 3 diamonds and we had at least 23 HCP. Obviously it didnt work out well but was the reasoning sound?





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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-June-13, 05:06

Do you play the style where 1 promises 5 ? What jump overcalls are opps playing ?

If you showed 5 I think your partner should seriously consider bidding 2 (if he didn't bid 2 first time), unless E is a complete idiot, you're not going to have a trump holding much better than the one you have and there is a danger you have a lot of points in hearts for very few defensive tricks.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-June-13, 08:38

View Postfraiseap, on 2020-June-13, 04:44, said:

Obviously it didnt work out well but was the reasoning sound?


Quite frankly, no. You found partner with a very good 1NT maximum rebid in Acol, with good controls, and the contract still made. High card points do not necessarily translate (as Cyberyeti says above) into defensive tricks.

The other consideration to take into account is do you have enough to double if the opponents run to 2 which could possibly happen on a hand similar to this? I have to give credit to West for believing his partner's bid and not running with a void in his partner's suit after you double.
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#4 User is online   AL78 

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Posted 2020-June-13, 13:34

I have some sympathy with the double, it is not obvious East isn't taking liberties and it is a double fit deal (East's semi-solid diamond suit is self supporting with the 3-3 break, so there is effectively a double fit EW) where the offensive-defensive ratio is high. It is not obvious what is best to do, you have 4 on your way despite both hands having eight losers, because the hands fit perfectly, and you have a solid double fit to draw trumps and throw a loser on the last club. I may well have done the same thing.
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#5 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 07:02

You have to convey your game invitational hand and the 5th H as you have (it seems) promised only 4 so far. You are red, they are green, so playing 2DX shouldn’t be your first goal.

If you play X as value showing w/o clear bidding and transformable by partner should they have 3 good or 4 trumps, that is correct.

If your X is pure penalties, maybe a cue bid will allow discover sth. The unfortunate thing being that if you end up in a number of H, partner’s stopper unless it is the A is probably going to be finessed on the opening lead then ruffed given you have 3 and RHO repeated his D despite knowing a strong NT hand with a stopper behind him.

At the end maybe 2NT inv. or 3NT (the strong suit and the CQ compensate the 8 HCP only) are best. Only goes down because they can freely run 5S but resulting for resulting, E would likely lead a D. 4H also needs inspired defense (underlead S to ruff twice).
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#6 User is offline   fraiseap 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 09:48

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-June-13, 05:06, said:

Do you play the style where 1 promises 5 ? What jump overcalls are opps playing ?

If you showed 5 I think your partner should seriously consider bidding 2 (if he didn't bid 2 first time), unless E is a complete idiot, you're not going to have a trump holding much better than the one you have and there is a danger you have a lot of points in hearts for very few defensive tricks.


Thanks, 1H only promises 4 cards so I had the option of rebidding hearts to show the 5th card. Obviously would be better in retrospect
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#7 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 09:51

Hi,

I have some sympathy for you, ... I looked at the hand and asked myself, what would I do,
..., double is ok. I may be in the same spot as you.
Maybe the spade shortage can tell you, that they have a secondary spade fit (if openers rebid
denied 4 spades), which may mean they have a 2nd source of tricks. This still leaves the question,
what to do, 2H sounds to weak, overbidding is likely to get you to high. all in all: next board.
Playing IMPs, be happy it was not game, although the overtrick still hurts.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#8 User is online   akwoo 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 14:52

If it's matchpoints, then X at red vs white is dumb.

That's because +50 and +100 will be worth about the same number of matchpoints (others playing your cards rate to score either +110 or -100), but -90 and -180 will be different (because others holding your cards might be -100). So you gain very little if the double is correct but lose a lot if it's wrong.

If the vulnerabilities are reversed, then there is a big difference between +100 and +200 (+110 is in between) while there's a smaller one between -90 and -180 (-50 isn't in between), so I'd think seriously about doubling.
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#9 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 15:20

View Postfraiseap, on 2020-June-13, 04:44, said:

Playing a weak NT and 4CM my partner opened a club and rebid 1NT after 1H from me and a 2d overcall. The 1NT bid promises a stopper in daimonds. The question was, do I double? I did and the contract made. I reasoned that my partner was likely to have 3 diamonds and we had at least 23 HCP. Obviously it didnt work out well but was the reasoning sound?

IMPs or MPs???

Suppose you were able to beat 2 by a trick for +100. Would you be happy about that? If E/W was vulnerable, at least you would be +200 for down 1. I think you probably need +300 for a good score in many hands.

Assuming East heard the bidding that North has a strong notrump and South had enough to respond over interference, do you really think you are going to get rich against a 2 level contract?
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#10 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 16:11

With an invitational hand, South can't do anything other than double. The only question is if it's optional or penalty. If it's optional, North has to take it out. Probably easier to play it as penalty, though. Then at least you don't have to worry about what "optional" exactly means.

Some play 1NT as specifically 15-16, and in that case South can just bid 2, or even pass. But opposite 15-17, he has to do something positive.

Btw, I don't think it's playable that 1NT promises a diamond stopper, although you will have one most of the time. You have to bid 1NT with
Axx-AQ-xxx-AQxxx
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
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#11 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 16:14

You have an invitational hand, quite a nice one, but its defence is limited. It depends on what X means, but there is always a risk partner will leave it in, and you will struggle to beat the contract as you have only 1 defensive trick. As others have said, even if you get it one down, that's not great when you can make 110 or more in hearts.

As such, I think you have to bid 3H, rather than double.

Should North take the double out? It depends on what it is defined as. If it is not strictly penalty, then there is maybe an argument for taking it out with that wonderful KJx support for hearts, as partner being a passed hand means they are unlikely to provide 3 more defensive tricks.

ahydra
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#12 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 16:48

fraiseap asks "Playing a weak NT and 4CM my partner opened a club and rebid 1NT after 1H from me and a 2d overcall. The 1NT bid promises a stopper in daimonds. The question was, do I double? I did and the contract made. I reasoned that my partner was likely to have 3 diamonds and we had at least 23 HCP. Obviously it didnt work out well but was the reasoning sound?"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IMO, fraiseap was a bit unlucky. As the cards lie, 2X makes, even on the best defence of 4 rounds of s. In hind-sight, contra-indications for a penalty double include
(a) the good 5-card suit and
(b) Qxx support.
Here, IMO, double should just be competitive. North, with KJx, should bid 2. You would still do well to reach the 4 game, with 10 top tricks.

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#13 User is online   akwoo 

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Posted 2020-June-14, 18:44

More thoughts here. Probably, in this situation, you don't have an invitational bid. You have to decide whether to play this hand as game forcing or not a game try.

At matchpoints in a good game in ACBL-land, where the field is playing strong NT and I'm thinking the auction at most tables is going 1N-(3D), I'll bid 2H. Let's say half the field sells out to 3D and half the field drive to a game. If I bid 2H, I score 50% if game makes and 100% if game fails. If I drive to game, I score 75% if game makes and 25% if game fails. At those odds, game has to be 75% for it to be worth bidding. I don't think it's 75%. (Actually, it's probably more like 1/3 selling out, especially since some tables will go 1N-(2D) or 1N-(X*) or 1N-(2C*). Then 2H is 33% if game makes and 100% if it fails, and game is 67% if game makes and 17% if it fails. Now game is worth bidding at 67%, which I still don't think it is.)

It's probably worth playing Lebensohl here, which would mean 3D is game forcing, denies a stopper, and asks partner to show a 3rd heart or a 4th spade. (Or whatever you play instead of Lebensohl.)
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#14 User is offline   fraiseap 

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Posted 2020-June-15, 08:46

View Postjohnu, on 2020-June-14, 15:20, said:

IMPs or MPs???

Suppose you were able to beat 2 by a trick for +100. Would you be happy about that? If E/W was vulnerable, at least you would be +200 for down 1. I think you probably need +300 for a good score in many hands.

Assuming East heard the bidding that North has a strong notrump and South had enough to respond over interference, do you really think you are going to get rich against a 2 level contract?


I should have said the scoring was IMPs
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-June-20, 12:20

First of all, let us talk system for a moment. Although there are other possibilities that come under the title "4cM WNT", I am going to assume that we are talking English Acol here. One point that might not be immediately obvious to the Americans here is that that means that Opener cannot hold 4 spades. Why? Because with a 4(23)4 hand and 15-17hcp, Opener would have started with 1. Therefore Responder has the perfect hand for a double, Opener either has 3 hearts, 5 clubs or 4 diamonds and has an easy time deciding what is the right thing to do.

Many of the comments above seem to be quite blind to the way modern English Acol works. If you read bridge books from, say, the 40s and 50s, then this double is 100% a penalty double. But you would be hard pressed to find too many top pairs that play it that way these days. Sure, we can discuss what to do for a pair that insists on such an agreement (I would probably just bid a conservative 2) but it completely misses the point. Similarly I daresay there are several posters who think that a competitive/DSIP double here should have spade tolerance. And there are indeed some systems for which that would be highly beneficial....but if we are talking modern English Acol then the lack of spade support is actually a good thing and not a negative!

In short, this is not a difficult hand if you understand the bidding system and play it in a modern way. If that is not the case, the answer is to improve the methods and not to make up a call based on getting the right result on a specific hand.
(-: Zel :-)

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#16 User is offline   Xgasman 

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Posted 2020-June-29, 06:45

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-June-20, 12:20, said:

First of all, let us talk system for a moment. Although there are other possibilities that come under the title "4cM WNT", I am going to assume that we are talking English Acol here. One point that might not be immediately obvious to the Americans here is that that means that Opener cannot hold 4 spades. Why? Because with a 4(23)4 hand and 15-17hcp, Opener would have started with 1. Therefore Responder has the perfect hand for a double, Opener either has 3 hearts, 5 clubs or 4 diamonds and has an easy time deciding what is the right thing to do.Many of the comments above seem to be quite blind to the way modern English Acol works. If you read bridge books from, say, the 40s and 50s, then this double is 100% a penalty double. But you would be hard pressed to find too many top pairs that play it that way these days. Sure, we can discuss what to do for a pair that insists on such an agreement (I would probably just bid a conservative 2) but it completely misses the point. Similarly I daresay there are several posters who think that a competitive/DSIP double here should have spade tolerance. And there are indeed some systems for which that would be highly beneficial....but if we are talking modern English Acol then the lack of spade support is actually a good thing and not a negative!In short, this is not a difficult hand if you understand the bidding system and play it in a modern way. If that is not the case, the answer is to improve the methods and not to make up a call based on getting the right result on a specific hand.

Maybe they're neither English or modern, but better players than I in the Acol Club will open a 4 card minor rather than a 4 card major on hands too strong for a weak notrump. Though why they wish to defer partner's gratification at discovering the "Holy Grail of Bridge" until the third round of bidding after their notrump rebid and Checkback is unclear to me.
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