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Open 2S?

#1 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 10:18

With a new partner, I have been playing a bit over my head in expert-level practice team matches on BBO. These are real experts not just self-described. In that situation, in first seat at unfavorable, would you open 2S with KJT876, T9, 63, K54?
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#2 User is offline   KingCovert 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 11:12

My preferred system doesn't have weak twos available to it, and so, in this situation you describe I'd be opening this hand 3. And, I'd be happy to do so. Preempts are simply effective, if you have a preempt, you should make it. Although, admittedly, the lower the preempt the less effective it is for obvious reasons. Second seat vulnerable being the classic exception to this.

I suppose the way in which this goes wrong is if you end up going -200 due to misplaying the hand severely, or some freakish deal where opponents have incredible defence but no game. This is acceptable though, because, when weighed against the slams they will sometimes miss, and the games they will sometimes miss, and the times that you will make, or the times that down 1 is wins you an imp or two... The potential to gain is pretty evident. The nightmare is when you preempt partner and miss game yourself, which is one of the primary reasons that 2nd seat vulnerable preempts should be solid preempts. We can't have partner guessing whether or not vulnerable game is making.
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 11:39

Routine 2 for me, yes it can go wrong, but don't play weak 2s if you're not opening this.
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#4 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 12:38

I agree; I open 2
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#5 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 12:48

Agreed

2 seems obvious
Alderaan delenda est
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#6 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 12:54

I think if is the textbook hand for the min R vs. G.
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 13:12

Looks classic to me, but if partner - especially an expert partner, when you're not - demands 2/top 3 vul and will complain about KJT then don't do it. Even if your partner is wrong.

Note: I have played everything from purely constructive "weak" 2 bids a la Schenken to "5+ cards is a mandatory open, yes, even 65432", and everything in between. There is no such thing as a "weak 2", just what you and your partner expect. Keeping partner happy is more important than your result on one board from a gamble (and that's what a preempt is, right?)
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 14:53

Looks like a weak 2 to me, but then I'm not your partner - if he is a real expert then all you have to do is ask.
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#9 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 15:19

I would expect any expert (or intermediate or novice) to open 2 if playing weak 2's. I would only expect a non-expert result merchant to complain about a 2 opening that didn't work out.
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#10 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2020-May-22, 19:41

Thank you I did open 2S and went for 800 on an utterly foul lie of the cards. Our teammates made a NV game for a 9 IMP loss when my counterpart passed the hand, which is mainly what raised the question. My partner is not the type to be critical of my bidding, which is my strength anyway. He thought it minimum at the colors but would have opened.
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#11 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-May-23, 01:48

Hi,

#1 red. vs. green it would be too weak for us in 1st and (esp. in 2nd), but we are pretty / extrem conservative with this
part. colors, I would also assume, that absent part. agreements, it should be ok to open 2S
#2 it does not really matter, what happens in 2S, more important is the question, how much does partner need to act, if he has
got something

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#12 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2020-May-23, 02:02

It's a pretty bad hand - minimum soft values and balanced with some defensive strength. At least my spade spots are good. First seat unfavourable is not a great time to preempt, so I would expect close to 50% of a good field to open it. I'm not sure there is much in it one way or another.

By far the more important question in an expert partnership is the partnership expectation rather than individual valuation. There are certainly pairs who would open this routinely and pairs who would not, but that's because they have discussed and agreed a style that works for them. For what it's worth, I would open this with some partners and pass with others.

Knowing partnership style is important. Larry Cohen gives a hand in one of his books (some 21 count if I recall correctly) where he would have looked for slam opposite a 2S opener from David Berkowitz but passed had Marty Bergen opened 2S.
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#13 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2020-May-23, 03:57

bad luck but it appears to be a no brainer to me.
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#14 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2020-May-23, 04:13

View Postiandayre, on 2020-May-22, 19:41, said:

Thank you I did open 2S and went for 800 on an utterly foul lie of the cards. Our teammates made a NV game for a 9 IMP loss when my counterpart passed the hand, which is mainly what raised the question. My partner is not the type to be critical of my bidding, which is my strength anyway. He thought it minimum at the colors but would have opened.


Win some, lose some. 2 always even red/green.
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-May-23, 08:56

Late to the thread. I would open 2S on the hand. I’d do so even if you changed the spade 10 to the 9, but that would be the lower limit for me, most days.

I remember, years ago, opening AJ98xx with a side Queen, so an equivalent hand, feeling unhappy. Fortunately, our opps defended a little less successfully than my teammates and my 800 won 7 imps😀
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#16 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2020-May-23, 19:10

View Postmikeh, on 2020-May-23, 08:56, said:

Late to the thread. I would open 2S on the hand. I’d do so even if you changed the spade 10 to the 9, but that would be the lower limit for me, most days.

I remember, years ago, opening AJ98xx with a side Queen, so an equivalent hand, feeling unhappy. Fortunately, our opps defended a little less successfully than my teammates and my 800 won 7 imps😀


Agreed completely.
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#17 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2020-May-24, 04:04

View Postiandayre, on 2020-May-22, 19:41, said:

Thank you I did open 2S and went for 800 on an utterly foul lie of the cards. Our teammates made a NV game for a 9 IMP loss when my counterpart passed the hand, which is mainly what raised the question. My partner is not the type to be critical of my bidding, which is my strength anyway. He thought it minimum at the colors but would have opened.

Considering that with that hand you have 3 tricks that are 100 % guaranteed (losing 7 side suit cards + 3 trumps), the opponents (and your team mates) must have had pretty darn good cards that are lying very well for them to take 8 tricks with spades as trumps. I consider it likely that they were able to take 12 tricks with another trump suit. Perhaps you should have won a fwe IMPs (if your team mates would have come with a score of 920, or higher). If they couldnot produce a slam (possible, but unlikely), you were very unlucky.

Rik
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#18 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-May-25, 10:23

View Postmycroft, on 2020-May-22, 13:12, said:

... your result on one board from a gamble (and that's what a preempt is, right?)


If this is the first time you've gone for 800 into nothing after a preempt, congratulations. It won't be your last. On the other hand, if you never go for 800 into nothing on a preempt, I guarantee you you're going +200 into game, or game making vs game down on the right lead, or wrong game into right game because your opponents are preempting those hands, and *more often* it leads to good results than bad (most often, of course, it's a wash).

Back on the first hand (blackshoe would tell me I'm saying that wrong, of course) one of our opponents after one particular disaster said it was the first time she had gone 1100 in her life. She has 1500 Masterpoints and has been playing "forever". I was just shocked - but then again, my first grand slam, playing with my teacher in my first ever tournament, went -6 for 14. For a great matchpoint score. I guess I learned early.

The thing about playing with experts is that they defend better, and they double shakier contracts because they don't slip as many tricks. They also play better on the other side - it could have been the decision not to open 2 (or they could have been playing Fantunes, or Elekblad-Rubin and not *had* a weak 2 call) that worked for them, but if they had bid it, they might have only gone -500.
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