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Jump in diamonds

Poll: Do you bid 5 Diamonds? (30 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you as South continue to 5D?

  1. Yes to both - IMPs / MPs (24 votes [80.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

  2. Yes at IMPs, no at MPs (3 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  3. No, I pass - be it IMPs or MPs (2 votes [6.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

  4. Yes at MPs, no at IMPs (1 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

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#21 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 04:52

This is one more hand that proves to me that my bidding judgement needs a significant upgrade.

I agonised long over my decision whether to bid game at all. I think I did bid game because it was IMPs; I'm not sure I would have taken the leap at MPs. If I recall, I did not realise the near-certainty that partner had 0 or 1 spade cards. My mind kept worrying about two spade and one club losers.

North's hand was something like x Axxxx xxxx Kxx (it's possible North had J) and the play of the hand took far lesser time than my final bid took for me.
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#22 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 08:40

View Postshyams, on 2020-May-20, 04:52, said:

This is one more hand that proves to me that my bidding judgement needs a significant upgrade.

I agonised long over my decision whether to bid game at all. I think I did bid game because it was IMPs; I'm not sure I would have taken the leap at MPs. If I recall, I did not realise the near-certainty that partner had 0 or 1 spade cards. My mind kept worrying about two spade and one club losers.

North's hand was something like x Axxxx xxxx Kxx (it's possible North had J) and the play of the hand took far lesser time than my final bid took for me.


4 small is a joke. The jump is supposed to reassure opener about the suit's playability.
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#23 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 08:43

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-May-20, 02:14, said:

Maybe, maybe not, if partner doesn't have a stiff spade he may well have the K or the two other aces, but I think it's incredibly unlikely he has more than one. And no I'm not banking 10 IMPs on it -1 NV vs +130 is 5 IMPs.


You referred to ace-asking. The 10 imps was the bing-bang set of 6.
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#24 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 08:45

View Postsfi, on 2020-May-19, 20:44, said:

I'm not sure that's a useful distinction to have here when you have to give up a way to force with a hand that's not interested in 3NT. To repeat my answer to your earlier question: Yes, I would expect a stranger to take 4D as forcing for the reasons I gave.


3 or 4 are available as cheaper, unambiguous forces.
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#25 User is offline   NoelParker 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 08:46

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 13:46, said:

would you expect a stranger to take 4 as forcing? On what general principle?

i think they mean closeout; not forcing as in must bid. If responder thought they should be in 5D s/he would put them there.
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#26 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 09:32

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-20, 08:43, said:

You referred to ace-asking. The 10 imps was the bing-bang set of 6.


If my ops are moronic enough for there to be 2 spades off the top, I'll beat them on the other boards (or they'll fail to lead one), in the real world I know where I am after asking for aces.
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#27 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 09:53

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 20:26, said:

North had a chance to bid 3 over 1 but didn't. North also had the chance to bid 3 at 2nd turn but didn't.

Two chances to show control but refused.

But you are willing to hazard 10 imps on your sense of the *opponents'* bidding. They are not there to help you.


Let's give partner the minimum hand he rates to have on this auction:

x AJxx Qxxx Jxxx

Do you think that's strong enough to splinter 3S after (1C) 1D (1S)? I certainly don't. You are basically committing yourself to 3NT or 5D, and your hand isn't strong enough.

After the 2S bid, a 3S call by partner is NOT any spade control. It's a spade stop for NT (the opponents have bid two suits, so cue bids show controls). Partner doesn't have that.

Please tell me what hand partner can have on this auction that (a) justifies his bidding; (b) makes sense given the opponents' bidding; and © has two spades worse than Kx and only one rounded Ace. It's very hard to make up such a hand.

As for the opponents, West must have at least five spades and East must have exactly three. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you start playing in better games.

And by the way, I'm not the only one risking IMPs on 5D making. You are risking IMPs on 5D not making. I'll bet 5D is at least 80% on this auction.

Cheers,
mike
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#28 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 09:59

View Postshyams, on 2020-May-20, 04:52, said:

This is one more hand that proves to me that my bidding judgement needs a significant upgrade.

I agonised long over my decision whether to bid game at all. I think I did bid game because it was IMPs; I'm not sure I would have taken the leap at MPs. If I recall, I did not realise the near-certainty that partner had 0 or 1 spade cards. My mind kept worrying about two spade and one club losers.

North's hand was something like x Axxxx xxxx Kxx (it's possible North had J) and the play of the hand took far lesser time than my final bid took for me.


Don't be so hard on yourself. One thing that separates top players from everyone else is the ability to visualize what partner holds during the bidding and then play the hand out mentally.

Experience is a good teacher here. Thus, any time you see a free rebid opposite a support double, you know it's 5+ and 3. This is just one of those things that comes up from time to time, and the more you see it, the more likely you are to get it right next time. As you point out, once you figure out that partner has a stiff spade, it's pretty easy to play the hand out and determine that 5D is likely to make if partner has as little as four diamonds and the Ah.

By the way, I think your partner overbid with 4D. The Kc is worthless. A simple 3D is plenty good enough after the 2D 10+ raise. You'll still get to game over 3D.

Keep on truckin'
Mike
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#29 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 13:01

EDITED by myself.
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#30 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 13:01

Sir,
I would have asked the meaning of 2Cx by RHO. If it is a support double showing 3 card spade support the partner is marked with a singleton spade .(1) 2D is a disgusting under bid (2) in our style we prefer a bid of 3D rather than 2S.(3) because of the underbid of 2D partner is showing his full worth with a bid of 4D.i accept and bid 5D.There is a possibility of missing 6D.In our style we bid 5C showing a singleton club(with a void club we would redouble 2Cx bid of RHO.There is no harm in bidding 5C) THANX
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#31 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 13:06

View Postmiamijd, on 2020-May-20, 09:53, said:

Let's give partner the minimum hand he rates to have on this auction:

x AJxx Qxxx Jxxx

Do you think that's strong enough to splinter 3S after (1C) 1D (1S)? I certainly don't. You are basically committing yourself to 3NT or 5D, and your hand isn't strong enough.

After the 2S bid, a 3S call by partner is NOT any spade control. It's a spade stop for NT (the opponents have bid two suits, so cue bids show controls). Partner doesn't have that.

Please tell me what hand partner can have on this auction that (a) justifies his bidding; (b) makes sense given the opponents' bidding; and © has two spades worse than Kx and only one rounded Ace. It's very hard to make up such a hand.

As for the opponents, West must have at least five spades and East must have exactly three. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you start playing in better games.

And by the way, I'm not the only one risking IMPs on 5D making. You are risking IMPs on 5D not making. I'll bet 5D is at least 80% on this auction.

Cheers,
mike



I was never talking about the risk of 5. I was talking about the risk of 6.

Bidding 3 at your first turn is not any stronger than bidding 2 then jumping to 4 at your 2nd. (Overcaller's 2 did not show more than minimum high cards.)

As to 2 guaranteeing 5: Responder is in a position to expect to defend. With AKQx and out, why not make it hard for the intervening side to find NT?
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#32 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 17:01

View Postmiamijd, on 2020-May-20, 09:53, said:

Let's give partner the minimum hand he rates to have on this auction:

x AJxx Qxxx Jxxx

Do you think that's strong enough to splinter 3S after (1C) 1D (1S)? I certainly don't. You are basically committing yourself to 3NT or 5D, and your hand isn't strong enough.

After the 2S bid, a 3S call by partner is NOT any spade control. It's a spade stop for NT (the opponents have bid two suits, so cue bids show controls). Partner doesn't have that.

Please tell me what hand partner can have on this auction that (a) justifies his bidding; (b) makes sense given the opponents' bidding; and © has two spades worse than Kx and only one rounded Ace. It's very hard to make up such a hand.

As for the opponents, West must have at least five spades and East must have exactly three. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you start playing in better games.

And by the way, I'm not the only one risking IMPs on 5D making. You are risking IMPs on 5D not making. I'll bet 5D is at least 80% on this auction.

Cheers,
mike


You think it is a *better* game when the opponents can be trusted to have their bids?? Or maybe never to false-signal?

You must mean easier for you.
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#33 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 19:24

View Postshyams, on 2020-May-20, 04:52, said:

North's hand was something like x Axxxx xxxx Kxx (it's possible North had J)

View Postshyams, on 2020-May-20, 04:52, said:

This is one more hand that proves to me that my bidding judgement GIB needs a significant upgrade.

FYP.
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#34 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-21, 04:00

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-20, 17:01, said:

You think it is a *better* game when the opponents can be trusted to have their bids?? Or maybe never to false-signal?

You must mean easier for you.


45+ years of bridge tell me that if you trust your opponents' bidding you gain a hell of a lot more times than you lose.
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