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Jump in diamonds

Poll: Do you bid 5 Diamonds? (33 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you as South continue to 5D?

  1. Yes to both - IMPs / MPs (26 votes [78.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.79%

  2. Yes at IMPs, no at MPs (4 votes [12.12%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.12%

  3. No, I pass - be it IMPs or MPs (2 votes [6.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.06%

  4. Yes at MPs, no at IMPs (1 votes [3.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.03%

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#1 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2020-May-18, 12:59

This happened with me as South at one of the tournaments:



1. Should I bid game? Would the choice be different for IMPs/MPs?

2. Separately, should I have bid differently at my second turn? Was 2 an acceptable choice of bid?
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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-May-18, 13:23

Hi,

4D is forcing, hence pass is out.
good raise means inv.+ or mixed raise+?
If inv.+, 2D is not enough.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-18, 15:01

I was bidding whichever of 2 or 3 shows this hand rather than 2, as little as x, Axx, Qxxx, xxxxx is sufficient for game, although as it happens allowing W to presumably show a 5th spade confirms partner's singleton.
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#4 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 02:30

I was more wondering if we should go via 4N to check on 6
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 03:31

View Postnekthen, on 2020-May-19, 02:30, said:

I was more wondering if we should go via 4N to check on 6


For god's sake use 4 to ask aces if 4 was not minorwood in the first place (which I suspect might be a decent use)
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#6 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 05:08

Your hand is strong for 2D, so yes, continue to game.
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#7 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 10:50

I would have bid 2S or 3D, rather than 2D. You have a hand that is much better than minimum for your 1D overcall. 6/4, great diamonds, a stiff in opener's strong suit. When the opponents have bid two suits, a cue-bid of one suit tends to show, rather than ask for, a stop. Since you have sort of a stop in spades, you could bid 2S, so that if partner has a good stop in clubs, you could play 3NT. Or you could jump to 3D if you are afraid that East could lead a spade to West, who would then put a club through your partner's stop.

On this bidding, yes, I would try 5D. What do you think partner has for his bidding? East has shown long, strong clubs. West has shown five spades, East three, and you have four. I would wager partner has the Ah, the Qd, a stiff spade, and probably one club honor (that you don't need). In that case, 5D will roll.

Cheers,
Mike
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#8 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 12:57

View Postshyams, on 2020-May-18, 12:59, said:

This happened with me as South at one of the tournaments:



1. Should I bid game? Would the choice be different for IMPs/MPs?

2. Separately, should I have bid differently at my second turn? Was 2 an acceptable choice of bid?


I played this hand yesterday, so hard to answer. With the crazy robot I always end up guessing wrong! With partner likely to have a singleton spade it looks like a crossruff but a trump lead likely- so what is the perfect minimum that is held? I agree with another that 2 is an underbid (but since GIB adds too many points for shortness who knows?) My real life partnerships would probably bid 2 and over my 3 they would bid 5 with the correct hand.
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#9 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 13:46

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2020-May-18, 13:23, said:

Hi,

4D is forcing, hence pass is out.
good raise means inv.+ or mixed raise+?
If inv.+, 2D is not enough.


would you expect a stranger to take 4 as forcing? On what general principle?
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#10 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 13:48

View Postnekthen, on 2020-May-19, 02:30, said:

I was more wondering if we should go via 4N to check on 6


How can you assume AK of won't cash?
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#11 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 13:48

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-May-19, 03:31, said:

For god's sake use 4 to ask aces if 4 was not minorwood in the first place (which I suspect might be a decent use)


How can you assume AK of won't cash?
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 14:06

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 13:48, said:

How can you assume AK of won't cash?


I have 4 spades the opps have 3 and at least 5 (you don't normally bid 2 opposite 3 with only 4)
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#13 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 16:52

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 13:48, said:

How can you assume AK of won't cash?


West bid 1S, showing four or more. East made a support double, showing exactly three. Over your 2D call, West freely bid 2S. He might bid 2S with only four if you pass and he is forced to bid something. But once you bid, he is off the hook. If he has only four spades and a minimum hand, why wouldn't he pass? So he has at least five, which leaves your partner with at most one.

There is another way to look at it, too. What does your partner have for his bidding, which showed 10+ in support of diamonds? He has at most the AJh and the Qd in the reds. That's seven. East has bid clubs twice, so it's unlikely he has much there. What else could he have for his bid? A stiff spade -- ah, there's the ticket!

Cheers,
Mike
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#14 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 17:03

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 13:46, said:

would you expect a stranger to take 4 as forcing? On what general principle?

Yes. North has already shown an invitational or better hand in support of diamonds. Now they've jumped to 4D rather than bidding 3D, so surely it's better than invitational.

Given my 2D bid last round, the least I can do is cue 4H. If partner bids 4S I'll ask for keycards.
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#15 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 17:26

2 was maybe an underbid so we need to do something. We have good trumps, and all we needs from p is one keycards for 5, or two for 6. If he has a void in spades, 5 makes even if he has a yarb.

I would ask for keycards. Even if 4 was meant as nonforcing (which I think it should be but YMMV) it can do no harm. If he has zero keycards and no spade void bad luck, but that's unlikely, and we get to 5 anyway if I don't pass now, which I obviously don't.
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
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#16 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 20:17

View Postsfi, on 2020-May-19, 17:03, said:

Yes. North has already shown an invitational or better hand in support of diamonds. Now they've jumped to 4D rather than bidding 3D, so surely it's better than invitational.

Given my 2D bid last round, the least I can do is cue 4H. If partner bids 4S I'll ask for keycards.


Better than invitational is *not* the same as forcing.

"bid on if you are max" and "bid on unless you are bare min".are both invitational, but way different.
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#17 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 20:20

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-May-19, 14:06, said:

I have 4 spades the opps have 3 and at least 5 (you don't normally bid 2 opposite 3 with only 4)


Note that word "normally." You are banking 10 imps on it.
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#18 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 20:26

View Postmiamijd, on 2020-May-19, 16:52, said:

West bid 1S, showing four or more. East made a support double, showing exactly three. Over your 2D call, West freely bid 2S. He might bid 2S with only four if you pass and he is forced to bid something. But once you bid, he is off the hook. If he has only four spades and a minimum hand, why wouldn't he pass? So he has at least five, which leaves your partner with at most one.

There is another way to look at it, too. What does your partner have for his bidding, which showed 10+ in support of diamonds? He has at most the AJh and the Qd in the reds. That's seven. East has bid clubs twice, so it's unlikely he has much there. What else could he have for his bid? A stiff spade -- ah, there's the ticket!

Cheers,
Mike


North had a chance to bid 3 over 1 but didn't. North also had the chance to bid 3 at 2nd turn but didn't.

Two chances to show control but refused.

But you are willing to hazard 10 imps on your sense of the *opponents'* bidding. They are not there to help you.
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#19 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2020-May-19, 20:44

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 20:17, said:

Better than invitational is *not* the same as forcing.

"bid on if you are max" and "bid on unless you are bare min".are both invitational, but way different.

I'm not sure that's a useful distinction to have here when you have to give up a way to force with a hand that's not interested in 3NT. To repeat my answer to your earlier question: Yes, I would expect a stranger to take 4D as forcing for the reasons I gave.
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#20 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-20, 02:14

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-19, 20:20, said:

Note that word "normally." You are banking 10 imps on it.


Maybe, maybe not, if partner doesn't have a stiff spade he may well have the K or the two other aces, but I think it's incredibly unlikely he has more than one. And no I'm not banking 10 IMPs on it -1 NV vs +130 is 5 IMPs.
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