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bidding question one suited hand opposite strong opening

#1 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 07:27

Any suggestions on how to bid this deal?
We play 2NT opening = 20-21; so here, 2C then 2NT = 22-23.
Posted Image
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 07:51

For us 2-2-2N-3(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6/6N.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 07:54

How do you show clubs in response to a 2NT bid in your methods?

I assume that 3 would be some form of Stayman? One option is to bid 4 showing a club suit and 100% forcing. But maybe you use 4 as Gerber or a transfer to hearts? If so, many pairs will bid 3 (initially Stayman) and then follow up with 4 (again 100% forcing) to show a club suit.

As an alternative, if using 4 to transfer to hearts, you could use 4 to transfer to clubs.

It needs to be a matter for partnership agreement, but you need a method to show clubs!

Edit: my post crossed with Cyberyeti - his method is another alternative that some pairs use.
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#4 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 09:22

>> For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6♣/6N.

>> many pairs will bid 3 (initially Stayman) and then follow up with 4 (again 100% forcing) to show a club suit.

Thanks for the suggestions. Personally, if I was West, I would take partner for 7 top honours and just jump to 6 with her cards. My partner's mind is better organised than mine and she wants a route to slam.
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
"Of course wishes everybody to win and play as good as possible, but it is a hobby and a game, not war." 42 (BBO Forums)
"If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?" anon
"Politics: an inadequate substitute for bridge." John Maynard Keynes
"This is how Europe works, it dithers, it delays, it makes cowardly small steps towards the truth and at some point that which it has admonished as impossible it embraces as inevitable." Athens University economist Yanis Varoufakis
"Krypt3ia @ Craig, dude, don't even get me started on you. You have posted so far two articles that I and others have found patently clueless. So please, step away from the keyboard before you hurt yourself." Comment on infosecisland.com
"Doing is the real hard part" Emma Coats (formerly from Pixar)
"I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again." Oscar Wilde
"Assessment, far more than religion, has become the opiate of the people" Patricia Broadfoot, Uni of Gloucestershire, UK
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 10:41

View Postpdmunro, on 2020-May-15, 09:22, said:

>> For us 2♣-2♦-2N-3♠(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4♣(single suited clubs) and via any of a number of routes onwards to 6♣/6N.

>> many pairs will bid 3 (initially Stayman) and then follow up with 4 (again 100% forcing) to show a club suit.

Thanks for the suggestions. Personally, if I was West, I would take partner for 7 top honours and just jump to 6 with her cards. My partner's mind is better organised than mine and she wants a route to slam.


There are 26 points available outside clubs, you at least want to check you aren't off 2 aces or the AK
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 11:24

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-May-15, 07:51, said:

For us 2-2-2N-3(variety of minor suited GF slam inv hands)-3N(forced)-4(single suited clubs)


You can play 3 either (like this) as a Puppet over which responder describes his minors or (more simply) as an Ask for opener to describe his minors (3NT=not interested, 4/4=4+cards).
We play the latter method as responder can already show a minor from within our 3 "Stayman".
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-15, 12:05

View Postpescetom, on 2020-May-15, 11:24, said:

You can play 3 either (like this) as a Puppet over which responder describes his minors or (more simply) as an Ask for opener to describe his minors (3NT=not interested, 4/4=4+cards).
We play the latter method as responder can already show a minor from within our 3 "Stayman".


Also depends if (we don't) you play this is your 3N raise with 2N-3N artificial.
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#8 User is offline   nudnikbp 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 05:36

Without a partnership agreement, West could bid 5C over 2NT. East has enough to continue to 6C as the slam can't be any worse than a diamond finesse.
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#9 User is offline   ruleof15 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 08:05

Here is the reason for top pairs to have a meaning for bids up to the 5 level. In this case a 3s rebid by responder would be minor suit Stayman, but a 4s bid would be a transfer to c and a 5c bid would be a transfer to d. Some may wonder why waste a bid. Tell me what else one might use the bids.
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#10 User is offline   wachusett 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 09:18

Being a firm believer in the KISS system, why not bid 3 Clubs immediately over the 2 Club opener? Normally that would show at least 8 HCP and a good Club suit. But 'cmon, that eight card suit surely makes up for the deficit of 1 HCP from a proper positive response.
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#11 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 10:11

View Postpdmunro, on 2020-May-15, 07:27, said:

Any suggestions on how to bid this deal?
We play 2NT opening = 20-21; so here, 2C then 2NT = 22-23.
Posted Image


Play the jump to 5 over 2NT to demand pass with no top !c honor, 6 with 1, 7 with both and all aces, some other suit with both but a missing ace.

I am sure this is the right meaning for the double jump, but I would not risk it unless the partnership had talked about it very recently.

I am not so sure the present responding hand is quite strong enough, though.
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#12 User is offline   magassoc 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 10:38

222N34H6
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 10:40

View Postmagassoc, on 2020-May-16, 10:38, said:

222N34H6


3 meaning what ? 4 meaning what ?
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#14 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 13:08

View Postwachusett, on 2020-May-16, 09:18, said:

Being a firm believer in the KISS system, why not bid 3 Clubs immediately over the 2 Club opener? Normally that would show at least 8 HCP and a good Club suit. But 'cmon, that eight card suit surely makes up for the deficit of 1 HCP from a proper positive response.


100% agree!! Complications are not always better. Could 3C mean something else?
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 13:53

View Postfourdad, on 2020-May-16, 13:08, said:

100% agree!! Complications are not always better. Could 3C mean something else?


A 3C positive will not help when partner holds (say) a spade / diamond two-suiter. It is not unlikely that your partner will be singleton or void in clubs and your 3C positive does not deliver the support that partner is entitled to expect.
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#16 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 16:26

View PostTramticket, on 2020-May-16, 13:53, said:

A 3C positive will not help when partner holds (say) a spade / diamond two-suiter. It is not unlikely that your partner will be singleton or void in clubs and your 3C positive does not deliver the support that partner is entitled to expect.


You seem to think that a positive response equals slam zone for every strain. That is a very hard way to play.
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#17 User is offline   dalelpage 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 17:06

If playing minor suit transfers:

2 2 (waiting) 2NT 3 (transfer to Clubs showing six or more clubs) 4 (accept the transfer), 4, splinter (although some may play this as natural), then 4NT, 5 (1430 showing 0 Key cards) 5 (Queen?), 5 (Queen) then either guess for 6 or 7 an argument can be made for 5NT to ask for kings.

I know some people do not play minor suit transfers over 2NT, but this hand is tailor-made for these transfers.

If you're not playing minor suit transfers:

On the 2NT bid, you know that partner has at least 22 points. You have 7 HCP and 10 total points with distribution, putting your pair at 32 points. With your HCP bringing your pair's total to 29 HCP, that means there are 11 outstanding. While it is possible that partner is missing two aces and a king, I would suggest bidding 4 Gerber. If you play 1430, partner's response of 4 (one or four aces) will tell you immediately that partner has all four as 12 points (three aces) is over the maximum that the opponents can have, and you can bid six or ask for kings. If partner bids 4 (0 or 3) or 4 (two without the queen), you can safely stop in 5 although with reckless disregard for propriety (and my partner's sanity), I'd probably still bid 6 and claim I misclicked or pulled the wrong card from my box when he goes merrily down 1 or 2. (Last part is a joke.)
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#18 User is offline   MimiIndy 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 18:00

Bid 3spades fro transfer to clubs. Then use 1430 to check key cards.
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#19 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 19:23

messing with strong 2 sequences can cause huge problems so I would advise against any club bids until we know what the heck opener has. I am not a gerber fan and hands like this show why. Over 2n I think a 4c bid adequately shows this type of hand (7/8 clubs)and mild slam interest or better. If opener wishes to sign off in 4n responder should accept that. 4d by opener should be KRC (0314) followed by 4h (03) 4s (club Q? AND promising all keycards) 5h (yes and heart K AND unable to bid 7
unless opener has something more than 4 aces and the club K. 6c. Note the huge difference when switching opener's red suits, an easy 7c can be bid unless opener wishes to take the slight gamble on the heart K being singleton and led and bids 7n.
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#20 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-16, 20:19

View Postgszes, on 2020-May-16, 19:23, said:

messing with strong 2 sequences can cause huge problems so I would advise against any club bids until we know what the heck opener has.


You have this exactly backward.

The weak hand's 7+ suit may well be the only strain that can make a high contract. the 2 opener is supposed to have aces and kings to add tricks even when misfitting responder's suit. Where responder may contribute nothing in a misfit.

If the weak hand must temporize for 3 rounds, his suit will sound like.a cue bid
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