[flytoox]

Many top players, like Mike Lawrence and Marshall Miles, recommend to use
4-card major opening and overcall. Wonder if any guy here adopt this method
and what do you think of this method. Marshall Miles even said you should
overcall 1S with:
S: AJ85
H: T
D: A8
C: AQT842

I personally think this goes a bit far.

[pbleighton]

May I add a few questions to your thread.

1) How does the overcaller's partner respond with three card support? I would think that with a weak (6-10 hcp) hand, you should raise to the two level. Is this so?
2) If the overcaller was strong and wishes to invite to game, then does he bid 2NT to indicate 4 cards?
3) How does the overcaller's partner invite to game with three card support (differeniated from four card support)?
4) Does vulnerability make a difference in which four card major hands you would overcall with?

[mishovnbg]

The problem with the 4 card major overcall or opening is you must sacrifice direct the 5 card major bids and suitable preempt raises and forget about the 6 card majors ;D
Misho

[hrothgar]

Many players have radically different theories about overcalls.

Here is a brief description of what I prefer to play over 1 level openings:

Jump Cue Bid = Asks for stoppers
Jump Shift = Roman
5+ cards in the bid suit, 5+ cards in the next higher suit
Intermediate strength (~ 11 - 16 HCP)
2NT = Roman
5+/5+ in two unbid suits, 17+ HCP
2 Level Overcall = "Standard"
Cue bid = Weak, Pure takeout 4441/5440 shape
1NT = Raptor(Lindqvist)
4 cards in an unbid major, 5+ cards in an unbid minor
1 level overcall = 4+ cards
Double = Power Double either
16-18 NT or
Strong takeout double or
Strong single suited hand

Suppose that RHO opens 1C and I hold a hand like:

KQ83
Q62
T2
AJ52

I strongly prefer being able to get the hand off my chest and overcall 1S rather than passing or [god forbid] make a takeout double with Tx in Diamonds.

Unlike Misho, I haven't run into any problems combining this hand type with the more "standard" overcalls.

[inquiry]

Quote

Many top players, like Mike Lawrence and Marshall Miles, recommend to use
4-card major opening and overcall. Wonder if any guy here adopt this method
and what do you think of this method. Marshall Miles even said you should
overcall 1S with:
S: AJ85
H: T
D: A8
C: AQT842

I personally think this goes a bit far.

I frequently overcall on four card suits at THE ONE LEVEL. Generally, these are hands where I hope to direct the opening lead. With the hand above, if RHO opens 1H... odds are I WILL be on the lead if they play the hand. So the directing the opening lead is not so useful. What I would do is overcall 2C, planning on making a negative double later if need be. If you do OVERCALL 2C on this hand, however, you may forever lose the spade suit, as your partner will raise clubs with three card support, and a clever partner will raise with Kx. If partner bids, however, you might now introduce spades... and if he doesn't, you can "double" back in to show spades.

As for the question about raises. I make no special concessions for the fact that partner will overcall with a four card suit. That is, I respond just as if he has a five plus suit. If playing in a 4-3 fit is the worse you ever do, then you will be doing ok.

Ben

[luis]

I like to play 4 card majors. It's the best way to quickly find a major suit fit if you have one and that may be a competitive advantage.
About overcalls sometimes I do overcall on a 4 card suit, like most normal players, I don't take that to a extreme where you frequently or always overcall a 4 card suit. As my cc says "maybe more frequently than the field"...

[hrothgar]

I'm in complete agreement with Ben and Luis on this one.
If I overcall 1M on a 4 card suit, I want partner to raise me with 3 card support.
Playing 2M on a 4-3 fit usually rates to be a very good contract.

Furthermore, the Law of Total Tricks is a very useful tool - so useful that it is worth modifying your constructive bidding structure to deprive the opponents of their ability to apply the LTT.

Frequent overcalls on 4 card suits combined with aggressive raises place enormous amounts of pressure on the opponents.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Richard . If you dont have any problems this doesnt really mean they dont exist. May be is difficult to catch them? We must count not only cases we didnt made mistake, but also these where we missed chance to:
- made preempt - if we play intermediate jumps with 2 or 1 suiters, you cant do it
- made preempt raises - if you play with 4 cards as normal overcalls/openings, you lose preempt raises with 3 cards. Bad news is also you differ from field. If you play such overcalls as exception ( I also play it ), then you only establish the rule 8).
- find 6-2 major contract. If you play with 4 cards as normal overcalls/openings, you need 2 times to rebid it, with 5 - 1 time. It is no chance leading italian pairs give up to play it as opening after so many years and so many systems. By the way Bocchi-Duboin play 4 major overcalls over 1 minor, but also solve problem by conventions: 1NT comic with weak 6 major and constructive 2DI multi with 6 major. This is an example for MOSCITO fans - they must manage long major suits by special way.

Example of my 4 card major overcall in BBO tournament:
http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...msg4442#msg4442

Misho

[Free]

Me and my partner play 4-card Major openings, because otherwise we can get in trouble after our 1C-opening if we would play 5-card Majors. Nevertheless, we rarely get a bad score because we played 1NT in stead of 2M and sometimes make a good score by playing 1NT+1 with a 5-3 fit (pairs!).

Our overcalls, we normally bid a 5-card or a good 4-card. The problem is: WHAT is a good 4-card? And our general principles of overcalling are based on LTC (Loser Trick Count), and that makes a difference between vulnerable and not (1&2 level: NV -8, V -7). Direct support is normally pre-emptive and to play, even with jumps or double jumps, so 1C - 1D - ... (whatever) - 4D = weak and to play. We cuebid one of their suits to invite (normally with at least a 3-card) so we can mostly play 2M if partner is weak. To invite in minors, we cuebid (if possible) or bid 2NT (4-card support). In other words, we consider an overcall as a 5-card, but it can be a 4-card.

And sometimes after a strong 2C-opening (beginners stuff) we bid our second longest suit (mostly 3 card)

[hrothgar]

Misho raises a very good point:

Agreeing to overcall on 4 card suits can make life difficult when you have a 5 bagger.

For me, the way that I handle this "problem" is to have the aggrement that a rebid in the major strongly suggests a 6 card suit. If I have a 5332 hand, I'll strive to either rebid in NT or raise partner's response.

As I mentioned earlier, I am perfectly happly to combine an aggressive 4 card major overcall style with systemic raises on 3 card suits. I play the same opening structure - Moysians don't scare me too much.

I also don't place much of a premium on playing the same contract as the field. My declarer play and defense aren't competitive with the best players out there. I'm not going to win many tournaments based on my ability to out declare Helgemo :-) I prefer to focus on bidding structures that I find analytically appealing and let "the field" worry about itself.

[hrothgar]

It is no chance leading italian pairs give up to play it as opening after so many years and so many systems.]

The transition from 4 card major based systems to 5 card major based system is an interesting case study.
My own understanding is that the most significant reason for this change is that there is a general belief that systems based on 5 card majors are easier to teach than systems based on 4 card majors. 4 card major systems often require a large amount of judgement regarding whether to open in a major or a minor. In contrast, 5 card major based systems allow the rote application of 'rules". Once 5 card majors became the norm, pros started switching to these methods in order to accomodate more clients.

As for the Italians: My understanding is that the Blue Team was paid money to switch away from their "traditional" canape based methods and adopt Precision. I don't know enough about the newer generation of Italian systems to comment about why they adopted 4 card majors as opposed to 5 card majors.

I will note, in passing, that many of the Scandinavian systems continue to use 4 card majors.
There are also still a number of hyper-aggressive Acol variants being used.
[Just check out the Hacketts]

[mishovnbg]

I did some statistical research about systems: http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...ay;threadid=521

Misho

[pbleighton]

There seems to be general agreement that overcalling on the one level with a good four card major is a good idea, at least occasionally - Richard seems to like to do it more frequently.

Moysian fits don't scare me - at the two level. My experience with them at the four level hasn't been so good

If you and your partenr have agreed to overcall with four, and the bidding goes 1D-1S-P-?, what do you bid with:
1) Kxx-xx-AJxx-AKxx
2) KQx-xx-Axxx-KQxx
3) Kxx-xx-Axxx-Axxx

My answers would be 4S, 4S, and 3S, and hope. Can you do better?

Peter

[luis]

Quote

if you and your partenr have agreed to overcall with four, and the bidding goes 1D-1S-P-?, what do you bid with:
1) Kxx-xx-AJxx-AKxx
2) KQx-xx-Axxx-KQxx
3) Kxx-xx-Axxx-Axxx
My answers would be 4S, 4S, and 3S, and hope. Can you do better?

With 4 or 5 cards overcalls I'd bid 2d on your three examples. 4s would never cross my mind after 1d(1s)pass.....

[hrothgar]

>If you and your parter have agreed to overcall with four
>and the bidding goes 1D-1S-P-?

>what do you bid with:

>1) Kxx-xx-AJxx-AKxx

2C, natural and forcing
[Note that transfer advanced of overcalls make live much easier]

>2) KQx-xx-Axxx-KQxx

2C, natural and forcing

>3) Kxx-xx-Axxx-Axxx

2S

At MP, I intended to double any three level contract for penalty

[inquiry]

Quote

If you and your partenr have agreed to overcall with four, and the bidding goes 1D-1S-P-?, what do you bid with:
1) Kxx-xx-AJxx-AKxx
2) KQx-xx-Axxx-KQxx
3) Kxx-xx-Axxx-Axxx

Why are you leaping to game with these hands. Partner might think you long in spades and short in points. You may miss laydown slams on any of these, but with hand 1&2 you are more likely to miss one. Not to mention with hand 1 in particular, the correct spot might be 3NT even if your partner has five spades.

A question to ask yourself, is what does 2D show. Do you play it 100% game force (I do not). Also, what does a jump to 2NT here show or even a creative jump to 3D? How about a bid of 3CLUBS?

Also, something to consider. Your partner will not be in a rush to bid a four card suit to AJxx, so on hand 2, the odds are he has a five card spade suit or longer. Also on all these hands, where the heck is the heart suit. Partner with 4-4 in the majors is likely to have doubled 1D.

All that said, here is how I would bid these three hands. First, I will not bid 3S or 4S on any of these, as I play these direct raises as PREEMPTIVE. When RHO passes, here is how I respond....

2 level cue bid = sound 3 card raise,
2 level raise = preemptive (say good 8 hcp or less)
2NT = limit raise or BETTER, four card trumps
3 level cue-bid = mixed raise (good def, fair off)
3 level raise = preemptive (0-7 pts, 4 card supp)
Jump new suit = fit jump, support, good suit

So, all three of these hands can be solved initially with a 2D cue bid. Your partner will take you for a good 3 card support. The rest, as they say depends upon his action. In 1&2 if he retreats to 2S, you will clearly force again, showing a better hand. With 3, vul, you might make one more game try.

However, on hand 2, you might get creative. For surely your partner has a five card suit or else significant extra values (with AJxx he has to have some other REASON to bid). So here you might try a 3C bid over 1S, and if partner retreats to 3S, carrry on to game. But if he shows life, you can get excited. On hand 1, however, even though it is a better hand, it is best to start with 2D, as partner is more likely to have a four card suit when you have just one honor.

Ben

[Free]

Quote

If you and your partenr have agreed to overcall with four, and the bidding goes 1D-1S-P-?, what do you bid with:
1) Kxx-xx-AJxx-AKxx
2) KQx-xx-Axxx-KQxx
3) Kxx-xx-Axxx-Axxx

My bids: 2D, 2D, 2D. Allways invitational. I don't see much of a difference in these hands, because A10xx is already a good 4-card in my partnership. I'll allways invite with a 3-card support. Direct support in my partnership is pre-emptive, normally with long spades and no points, just to make it opponents a bit harder if they have something to play and according to LTC so we don't go too high. If partner bids very light, you have nothing to play but 2S and maybe 3S. Invite, even with 15HCP (unless you play with LTC and you both together have -14)...

After your first invite, you can allways make a second invite (with hand 1: 1D-1S-P-2D-P/Dbl-2S-P-2NT), maybe to play 2NT or 3NT or 3S or 4S. Partner descides and knows you have a control in D.

[flytoox]

Quote

Quote

if you and your partenr have agreed to overcall with four, and the bidding goes 1D-1S-P-?, what do you bid with:
1) Kxx-xx-AJxx-AKxx
2) KQx-xx-Axxx-KQxx
3) Kxx-xx-Axxx-Axxx
My answers would be 4S, 4S, and 3S, and hope. Can you do better?

With 4 or 5 cards overcalls I'd bid 2d on your three examples. 4s would never cross my mind after 1d(1s)pass.....

agree, 2d would be the best starting point. No rush to bid 4s, it is always there. Pd may have min overcall hand, so u can stay belove game. If pd have 4 card, then he may be able to rebid nt, which you will be happy to pass.

[lifemonster]

Quote

Quote

Many top players, like Mike Lawrence and Marshall Miles, recommend to use
4-card major opening and overcall. Wonder if any guy here adopt this method
and what do you think of this method. Marshall Miles even said you should
overcall 1S with:
S: AJ85
H: T
D: A8
C: AQT842

I personally think this goes a bit far.

I frequently overcall on four card suits at THE ONE LEVEL. Generally, these are hands where I hope to direct the opening lead. With the hand above, if RHO opens 1H... odds are I WILL be on the lead if they play the hand. So the directing the opening lead is not so useful. What I would do is overcall 2C, planning on making a negative double later if need be. If you do OVERCALL 2C on this hand, however, you may forever lose the spade suit, as your partner will raise clubs with three card support, and a clever partner will raise with Kx. If partner bids, however, you might now introduce spades... and if he doesn't, you can "double" back in to show spades.

.......

Ben

Not a problem. If 2C got raised to 3C, the playing strength of the hand is promoted and you can afford to bid 3S in your 2nd turn.