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1D-1H-2C-4H What sort of hand does responder have?

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 11:28

With standard bidding, what is responder showing here?: 1-1-2-4

And here? 1-2-3-4
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 11:35

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:28, said:

With standard bidding, what is responder showing here?: 1-1-2-4

And here? 1-2-3-4


Opposite the first

Kxx
KQJT964
xx
x
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 11:39

Opposite the second

Axx
AKQ9xxx
xx
x
Alderaan delenda est
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#4 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 11:47

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-May-08, 11:39, said:

Opposite the second

Axx
AKQ9xxx
xx
x

Many thanks.
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#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 11:48

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:47, said:

Many thanks.


Don't thank me too quickly...

Its entirely possible that others will disagree firmly with my examples
Alderaan delenda est
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#6 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 12:14

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-May-08, 11:48, said:

Don't thank me too quickly...

Its entirely possible that others will disagree firmly with my examples


Your answers helped construct a mental framework for me. I hope it holds up.

1D-1H-2C-2H shows a weak hand, no fit with partner, no realistic NT potential - 6 cards and one or two honours (suit quality 8)
1D-1H-2C-3H shows a point or two more and 7 card suit(suit quality 9)
1D-1H-2C-4H a tad stronger, Suit quality 10, self sufficient.
1D-2H-3C-4H (jump shift) probably at least 14 HCP, showing a self sufficient suit and a hand that might offer slam possibilities if opener has extras.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 13:04

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-May-08, 12:14, said:


1D-2H-3C-4H (jump shift) probably at least 14 HCP, showing a self sufficient suit and a hand that might offer slam possibilities if opener has extras.


Suggest 3 might be better than 4 in this situation, 2 is already GF. You also need to be clear what 1-3/4 are
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#8 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 14:01

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-May-08, 13:04, said:

Suggest 3 might be better than 4 in this situation, 2 is already GF. You also need to be clear what 1-3/4 are

Good point. Leaves room for cue bidding.
Can you suggest anything for 13/4? I can't think of a non-conventional use for them.

t
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#9 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 14:15

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:28, said:

And here? 1-2-3-4


As cyberyeti says, the 2H response created a game forcing situation and 3H would be a normal bid, setting hearts as trumps. This makes the jump to 4H a strange and unusual bid. I don't have any agreement on the meaning.
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#10 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 14:18

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-May-08, 14:01, said:

Can you suggest anything for 13/4? I can't think of a non-conventional use for them. t


We play 1D-3H as a splinter. 1D-4H does not exist for us.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 14:23

View PostTramticket, on 2020-May-08, 14:18, said:

We play 1D-3H as a splinter. 1D-4H does not exist for us.


Some people play 4 as KQJ 8th and maybe a little more but not much else (ie something where 3N is not likely to be sensible). We play 1-3 as specifically a void, we push the singletons through an inverted 2.
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#12 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-May-08, 15:04

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-May-08, 11:28, said:

And here? 1-2-3-4

If you're playing Soloway (much better than the old fashioned strong jump shifts), then this can be used to show a minimum with solid trumps, like hrothgar's hand, allowing the non-jump rebid to be stronger (see http://kwbridge.com/js.htm).
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#13 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2020-May-09, 00:11

View PostTramticket, on 2020-May-08, 14:15, said:

As cyberyeti says, the 2H response created a game forcing situation and 3H would be a normal bid, setting hearts as trumps. This makes the jump to 4H a strange and unusual bid. I don't have any agreement on the meaning.


Possibly that 3improved my hand? No outside controls to bid.
The alternative might be showing specifically a 1 loser suit?
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#14 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2020-May-09, 00:13

Some might play 2 as a weak jump shift in their system although I cannot recommend it. More popular in the 70's and 80's/
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#15 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2020-May-09, 07:02

View PostTramticket, on 2020-May-08, 14:15, said:

As cyberyeti says, the 2H response created a game forcing situation and 3H would be a normal bid, setting hearts as trumps. This makes the jump to 4H a strange and unusual bid. I don't have any agreement on the meaning.



Forcing is not the same as promising a suit playable at slam opposite a void. 2 then 4 promises such a suit. But denies enough side strength to take over. Somethng like a side ace and the queen of one of opener's suits.

If you bid only 3 , you will be forced to take over. That is, forced to guess.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-May-09, 09:46

View Postbluenikki, on 2020-May-09, 07:02, said:

Forcing is not the same as promising a suit playable at slam opposite a void. 2 then 4 promises such a suit. But denies enough side strength to take over. Somethng like a side ace and the queen of one of opener's suits.

If you bid only 3 , you will be forced to take over. That is, forced to guess.


Only if you don't have system for this, we play (playing a weak NT) 2N as small singleton heart (J or less) or a void so 3 over 2N already confirms a hand prepared to play a slam opposite a small singleton and the 3 rebid confirms at least xx/Q in the heart suit.
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#17 User is offline   dave_beer 

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Posted 2020-May-09, 09:52

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-May-08, 11:39, said:

Opposite the second

Axx
AKQ9xxx
xx
x

I would expect xx-AKQJxxxx-xx-x and it might have a stray Q or so but definitely not side A or K.

With your example I would bid 2 and then 3.
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#18 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2020-May-10, 11:38

Hi,

#1 what is the meaning of a 4H response to a 1D opening, splinter or to play?
#2 does not exist, either 2H was gf, than 3H or 2H was weak, than 3H

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#19 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-May-10, 20:29

ALlow me to disagree slightly with some of what has been written before.

A weak hand with great hearts just bids 4H over 1D. That's isn't a splinter. 3H is a double-jump; it is a splinter (you wouldn't want to go past 3NT in this situation, either).

1♦-1♥-2♣-4♥

This is a GF hand with no first or second round control outside of hearts. Maybe something like:

xx AKQJxx xx Qxx

If you had weaker hand, you could invite with 3H. If you had an outside control, you would bid 2S FSF first, then bid hearts as cheaply as possible

1♦-2♥-3♣-4♥

There really is no such an auction if you are playing any sort of disciplined strong jump shifts (17+). The whole point of a SJS is to find slams. The second bid from the jump shifter shows whether he has a strong suit of his own, support for opener's suit, or a big, balanced hand with a five-bagger. Bidding 3H shows the single-suited strong jump shift. 3NT would show the balanced hand with five hearts. 3S would show the diamond support hand.

The hand one commenter posited:

Axx AKQxxxx xx x

is probably not quite good enough for a SJS, but if you think it is, then you rebid 3H to show a very strong hand with a good heart suit. Bidding 4H is pointless. Ostensibly it would show a great hand with no first or second round control outside of H, but it that's your hand, you don't have a SJS.

Cheers,
Mike
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#20 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-May-11, 14:00

View Postmiamijd, on 2020-May-10, 20:29, said:

The hand one commenter posited:

Axx AKQxxxx xx x

is probably not quite good enough for a SJS, but if you think it is, then you rebid 3H to show a very strong hand with a good heart suit. Bidding 4H is pointless. Ostensibly it would show a great hand with no first or second round control outside of H, but it that's your hand, you don't have a SJS.


I would say that five loser eight playing trick hand very close to a strong Acol 2 opening is good enough for a SJS. If you are not going to SJS on a hand like that, you might as well take them off your card.
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