BBO Discussion Forums: 4NT after opening 2NT then Jacoby Transfers - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

4NT after opening 2NT then Jacoby Transfers

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 2014-January-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sleaford, Lincolnshire
  • Interests:Bridge, Gardening, DIY, Travel

Posted 2020-April-24, 11:32

Partner opens 2NT (20-22) and I have five hearts and 11 HCP. If I bid 2 and partner responds 2H, my 4NT is a quantitative slam try,so how do I cater for the possibility that partner might be minimum, so 6NT is not on, but if partner has four hearts a 6H slam might well be on. If I bid 3H or 4H partner might pass. with 6 hearts I could bid 5C (super Gerber) to ask for aces, but is there any reasonably straightforward way of finding out if an 8 card heart fit exists AND then, depending on the answer, explore either the NO Trump or heart slam.
0

#2 User is offline   shyams 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,379
  • Joined: 2009-August-02
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dubai, UAE

Posted 2020-April-24, 11:53

After the transfer, a bid of 3-Other major is artificial and indicates slam interest.
0

#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,939
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2020-April-24, 11:55

Transferring, then bidding a quantitative 4NT seems about right, partner will bid on with either maximum or with trump support.
2

#4 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,998
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2020-April-24, 12:48

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-April-24, 11:32, said:

Partner opens 2NT (20-22) and I have five hearts and 11 HCP. If I bid 2 and partner responds 2H, my 4NT is a quantitative slam try,so how do I cater for the possibility that partner might be minimum, so 6NT is not on, but if partner has four hearts a 6H slam might well be on. If I bid 3H or 4H partner might pass. with 6 hearts I could bid 5C (super Gerber) to ask for aces, but is there any reasonably straightforward way of finding out if an 8 card heart fit exists AND then, depending on the answer, explore either the NO Trump or heart slam.
Director!

View Postshyams, on 2020-April-24, 11:53, said:

After the transfer, a bid of 3-Other major is artificial and indicates slam interest.
Director! (at least if the suit is spades...)

But seriously, 2NT is called "the slam-killer" for a reason. There just aren't enough sequences for all the hands after you steal the entire 1 and 2 levels on the opener. 5-card-Major slam try is the one that you pretty much have to figure out a sequence for. If all you care about is Aces, then transfer-and-Gerber works. But what about the major K? Q? 5M and want to cue bid? 5M-5x and want to explore both suits? 5M-4x? It's different when x is Spades and when it's a minor, right?

I'm sure there are good answers to all of these questions, but my partner never gets 20 point hands, never mind me having complicated delicate slam questions after she does - so I don't care. I'd much rather cut down my stupid mistakes on 1H-2D auctions than try to map out a complete 2NT opener system. I do the basics and slam-guess some.

Note: Texas transfers do open up a lot of space. With 6 hearts and a slam try, Texas and 4NT is unambiguously RKC. 3, then 4 is "at least some slam interest". It really is the 5M hands that are hard.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,914
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2020-April-24, 12:59

View PostLiversidge, on 2020-April-24, 11:32, said:

Partner opens 2NT (20-22) and I have five hearts and 11 HCP. If I bid 2 and partner responds 2H, my 4NT is a quantitative slam try,so how do I cater for the possibility that partner might be minimum, so 6NT is not on, but if partner has four hearts a 6H slam might well be on. If I bid 3H or 4H partner might pass. with 6 hearts I could bid 5C (super Gerber) to ask for aces, but is there any reasonably straightforward way of finding out if an 8 card heart fit exists AND then, depending on the answer, explore either the NO Trump or heart slam.


I'll assume you meant 2nt-3d-3h-?
  • 5c super Gerber is strange agreement, I think it is more likely to be interpreted as exclusion RKC. If you wanted to RKC, it's more normal to Texas transfer (or alternately South African Texas) then 4nt (which is RKC, unlike Jacoby + 4nt which is quant). You'd want to have 6 hearts for this normally. If you don't play some form of Texas now you probably should add it; it gives multiple additional sequences at little cost.
  • The normal thing with a 5332 that wants to invite slam is to transfer then 4nt. Partner can pass or accept slam with 6h/6nt as appropriate. Partner should automatically be more inclined to accept 6H holding 4 cd support with good controls in the context of 2nt opening even if min.
  • If you want to force to slam bid 5nt instead, choice between 6h/6nt
  • If you have a 2nd suit then bid it to find out if heart fit exists or not, or if you have fit in 2nd suit.

1

#6 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,914
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2020-April-24, 13:02

View Postshyams, on 2020-April-24, 11:53, said:

After the transfer, a bid of 3-Other major is artificial and indicates slam interest.
This would be a weird agreement. Usually bidding other major is natural, showing 2nd suit. Either 5-5 or 4-5 depending on other agreements, overall system.
Bidding other major to indicate slam interest is usually constrained to bidding other major after *Stayman* and a response by opener indicating a particular major held, e.g. 2nt-3c-3h-3s!

1

#7 User is offline   FelicityR 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 972
  • Joined: 2012-October-26
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2020-April-24, 14:36

This does limit you but my regular partner and myself have an agreement that both 3 to 3 transfer, and, a 3 to 3 transfer are forcing to game.

So you never get to play in a major suit three level part score, but then again you could be playing in a 5-2 fit at the three level, too, with a weak transfer when 2NT is the best contract.

If partner has a good fit - effectively the equivalent of a superaccept - for the suit transferred, and a good 2NT opener he/she will cue bid instead of transferring immediately. You then know as responder immediately how good opener is, and whether you are playing in a 9+ card fit.

The British player, Jeremy Flint, used a 3 rolling transfer bid (Flint Convention) over 2NT a long, long, time ago where either a weak or hand could be played at the three level after a 2NT opener. The convention disappeared quite quickly, as far as I am aware, because it didn't turn up that often.
0

#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,392
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2020-April-24, 15:09

It also can help on some of the marginal hands if you expand your transfer breaks, we break to a new suit with HHxxx in the suit bid and Hxx or better in partner's suit (H=AKQ), while using 3N/4partnersM for the 4 card breaks.
0

#9 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,510
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-24, 15:58

View PostStephen Tu, on 2020-April-24, 12:59, said:

I'll assume you meant 2nt-3d-3h-?
  • 5c super Gerber is strange agreement, I think it is more likely to be interpreted as exclusion RKC. If you wanted to RKC, it's more normal to Texas transfer (or alternately South African Texas) then 4nt (which is RKC, unlike Jacoby + 4nt which is quant). You'd want to have 6 hearts for this normally. If you don't play some form of Texas now you probably should add it; it gives multiple additional sequences at little cost.
  • The normal thing with a 5332 that wants to invite slam is to transfer then 4nt. Partner can pass or accept slam with 6h/6nt as appropriate. Partner should automatically be more inclined to accept 6H holding 4 cd support with good controls in the context of 2nt opening even if min.
  • If you want to force to slam bid 5nt instead, choice between 6h/6nt
  • If you have a 2nd suit then bid it to find out if heart fit exists or not, or if you have fit in 2nd suit.



I agree with Stephen Tu here, quantitative 4NT is there for a reason. I would add that you already know that partner is not maximum otherwise he would have superaccepted, even with 3-cards (I hope). I do think Texas should be reserved for 6 cards and with some slam interest too, as you can always sign off by rebidding 4 after the 3-level transfer. As for 3 after the 3-level transfer, that could usefully show 5 5 with slam interest if 5 4 goes through Stayman.
Finally, 2N 3 3 4/5/5 is not on the books but well worth discussing (for us a control-bid, but could be exclusion).
1

#10 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,914
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2020-April-24, 16:14

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-24, 15:58, said:

I do think Texas should be reserved for 6 cards and with some slam interest too, as you can always sign off by rebidding 4 after the 3-level transfer.
Note that this is backwards of the way most play it (at least on this side of the pond). Transferring at lower level then raising to game playing Texas is slam inv over here, Texas then pass to sign off.

2

#11 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,510
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-24, 16:20

View PostStephen Tu, on 2020-April-24, 16:14, said:

Note that this is backwards of the way most play it (at least on this side of the pond). Transferring at lower level then raising to game playing Texas is slam inv over here, Texas then pass to sign off.


I was taught to play it the way you say here over 1NT, but the opposite over 2NT.
And that was to be able to play with US players, so I hope it was right :)
Texas is not part of Italian systems (although the Italians call a Jacoby transfer 'Texas').

I imagine the underlying logic is that with slam interest over 1NT you usually want to go through Jacoby transfer, both to exploit the extra bidding space and to get superaccept information. Whereas over 2NT with the 3-level transfer the limited space and the superaccept are necessary to decide between partial and game in 3NT or 4 of suit (unless like Felicity you play the transfer as a game force, but that sounds a bit extreme to me). So the "raise" to game is basically just saying stop here. Of course this also means that simple completion of Texas transfer now discourages slam, as opener who is interested will bid RKCB.

Maybe it's a minority treatment, though.
0

#12 User is offline   JonnyQuest 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 84
  • Joined: 2012-May-02

Posted 2020-April-24, 16:21

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-24, 15:58, said:

I do think Texas should be reserved for 6 cards and with some slam interest too, as you can always sign off by rebidding 4 after the 3-level transfer.

I suppose it could be played like this, but it's (the level of slam interest) a reverse of what is standard. (Texas is always 6+)

Usually, Texas is used when there is either zero slam interest, or a hand that plans to bid RKC after Texas. A drive to slam. The "some slam interest" hands get to the game level by the lowest level transfer, then a game-level bid in the Major. Doing so leaves room for all manner of superaccepts, in which case subsequent suit-bids would be controls.
0

#13 User is offline   JonnyQuest 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 84
  • Joined: 2012-May-02

Posted 2020-April-24, 16:24

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-24, 16:20, said:

I was taught to play it the way you say here over 1NT, but the opposite over 2NT.
And that was to be able to play with US players, so I hope it was right :)
Texas is not part of Italian or I think most European systems (although the Italians call a Jacoby transfer 'Texas').


Posted slowly, so late on previous post.

I'm curious --- why flip-flop the 1NT and 2NT route? I'm sure some genius has thought this through.
0

#14 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,914
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2020-April-24, 17:43

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-24, 16:20, said:

I was taught to play it the way you say here over 1NT, but the opposite over 2NT.
And that was to be able to play with US players, so I hope it was right :)


No, US players play the same over 1nt/2nt with regard to Jacoby vs Texas.
I think the idea is to avoid the minor leak of information of whether opener has a super-accept or not when interested only in game, and also to increase the risk for opps contemplating offering a sacrifice (sticking in 3s vs having to put in 4s). Plus memory load of not doing things differently over 2nt vs 1nt.

If opener super-accepts and you had a slam try, of course you continue. And if not, you just raise to game as slam try

0

#15 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2020-April-25, 01:15

Sir,
This is a problem to be discussed and agreed upon by your partnership.There is no commonly available known method for the situation.But if indeed you desire a four card support then why not use Stayman ? Do you need a super acceptance for the suit you have to go via a transfer.You will have to be a super Chef if you want to make a well baked cake and make partner eat it.Cake shops are closed,
0

#16 User is offline   dsLawsd 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 267
  • Joined: 2017-September-15

Posted 2020-April-25, 03:24

You have not shown an actual hand here and that may make all the difference. Have a good suit rich in outside A/K OR A semi-solid side suit. Perhaps transfer and then bid 4 to show a mild slam try with 10-11 working points. Perhaps stayman first then bid another suit or ace ask?

A worse hand seems headed for 4NT assuming decent intermediates.
As the folks above said, 2NT can be a slam killer as the balanced 20-21 usually has some holes.
With a nearly solid major you might just use an ace ask to start and then go with 6 with positive answers.

partnership agreements very important in slam bidding- being on the same wavelength as to what each response normally shows.
0

#17 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,510
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-25, 04:00

View PostJonnyQuest, on 2020-April-24, 16:24, said:

Posted slowly, so late on previous post.

I'm curious --- why flip-flop the 1NT and 2NT route? I'm sure some genius has thought this through.


I can ask the genius who taught me :)
I assumed it was standard, but if not I bet he had a good reason.
0

#18 User is offline   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 638
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2020-April-25, 05:04

The system I play with my partner solves these issues as follows:
  • Like FelicityR above, my transfers to a major after partner opens 2NT are forcing to game, on the view that opposite 20+ a game is sufficiently likely that it is rare that we want to stop in 3M.
  • Related to the above, opener is requested to answer with a cue-bid (instead of completing the transfer) with a four card in my suit. We are going to at least game, after all.*
  • Even without these agreements, it is useful to discuss what your answers are to quantitative 4NT (regardless of the situation). There is a lot of bidding room between 4NT and 6NT, and like you point out it may not be clear what the best contract is. In my system opener passes with any minimum, bids 'a suit with extra values', typically a 4-card suit, on the 5-level if not minimum, and a jump to 6 shows a non-minimum with a long strong suit. The 6NT response doesn't even exist on many sequences! The exact length and strength depends on what is already known of the hand, for example after 1C-4NT a jump to 6C would promise at least a solid 6, whereas after 2NT-4NT opener can't have more than 5.


With all this I think every aspect of your worries should be covered. After 2NT transfer with 3. If partner completes the transfer he has at most 3 hearts, so you can bid 4NT to let partner chime in, looking for 6NT, 6H or even 6 other in the 5-3 fit (although this would be quite unusual). If partner has 4 hearts he starts the cue-bidding at a pleasantly low level.

*One point of confusion with this approach - in the sequence 2NT-3*-3, is opener showing four hearts and a control in spades, or a 5=2=3=3 shape and warning partner of the poor distribution? We have chosen the latter approach, since the bidding can be kept below 3NT.
1

#19 User is offline   ibm386 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: 2020-January-02

Posted 2020-April-25, 06:12

3-3 and 4 Gerber - 0-4,1,2,3 aces
simple the best.
0

#20 User is offline   bluenikki 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 232
  • Joined: 2019-October-14

Posted 2020-April-25, 08:49

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-24, 15:58, said:

I agree with Stephen Tu here, quantitative 4NT is there for a reason. I would add that you already know that partner is not maximum otherwise he would have superaccepted, even with 3-cards (I hope). I do think Texas should be reserved for 6 cards and with some slam interest too, as you can always sign off by rebidding 4 after the 3-level transfer. As for 3 after the 3-level transfer, that could usefully show 5 5 with slam interest if 5 4 goes through Stayman.
Finally, 2N 3 3 4/5/5 is not on the books but well worth discussing (for us a control-bid, but could be exclusion).


In his 1972 book "Slam Bidding," Hugh Kelsey recommended that quantitative 4NT be treated as nonforcing Blackwood. the teller passes with poorish controls and shows aces otherwise. Then asker's 5NT shows two missing aces. (If you desperately need kings, bid 6.)
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users