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how to bid with void

#1 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 13:48



West dealer
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 15:26

With most standard agreements I think East just bids Stayman and then blasts to 6 over a 4-card 2 reply.
With an expert level Stayman you could show 5-5 and then keycard or control-bid, but the result is the same.
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 16:53

We play weak no trump so would start 1, but transferring A across, we bid 1N-4(5-5 majors, to play or slammy)-4-5(voidwood)-5(1)-6
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#4 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 17:05

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-18, 15:26, said:

With most standard agreements I think East just bids Stayman and then blasts to 6 over a 4-card 2 reply.
With an expert level Stayman you could show 5-5 and then keycard or control-bid, but the result is the same.


I would expect that most people in the US would start with a transfer bid rather than Stayman
Alderaan delenda est
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#5 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 17:23

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-18, 15:26, said:

With most standard agreements I think East just bids Stayman and then blasts to 6 over a 4-card 2 reply.
With an expert level Stayman you could show 5-5 and then keycard or control-bid, but the result is the same.

Stayman? Have never heard of that with 5-5 before - how do you continue after the almost certain 2?

Seems like the normal starting point for standard bidding would be 1N - 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 after which you can use voidwood 5 - 5N - 6.
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 19:21

1nt-2
2NT*-5**
5NT-6

*generic superaccept
**voidwood

Maybe we could do better, using a game try after 2NT
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
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#7 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 01:25

helps to have extensive agreements over 1nt (range?)
covering many responder hand-types.

In Western Style 2/1 Game Force 3/3 were often used to show 5-5 weak (3H) and 5-5 strong (3S) in the majors.

You might look at expert pairs convention cards to see what they use.

In my research over the last year I have copied about 25 top pairs cards to my computer and watched how they play them.

Strong club and other systems would differ, as would Polish Club based systems.

Find one that works for you and your fav partner.
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 02:52

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-April-18, 17:05, said:

I would expect that most people in the US would start with a transfer bid rather than Stayman


Probably.
I guess it depends on how you would handle 5-4 GF: if that goes through Stayman then it makes sense to handle 5-5 GF as spades transfer then hearts.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 03:03

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-April-18, 17:23, said:

Stayman? Have never heard of that with 5-5 before - how do you continue after the almost certain 2?


With our "Stayman" it would go:
1N (15-17) - 2
2 (no 5cM) - 3 (5-5)
3 - 5 (excl)
5N - 6
p.
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#10 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 03:44

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-19, 03:03, said:

With our "Stayman" it would go:

Right, but I was referring to your 'most standard agreements', which I'm pretty sure doesn't include 2 denying a five card major.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 04:06

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-April-19, 03:44, said:

Right, but I was referring to your 'most standard agreements', which I'm pretty sure doesn't include 2 denying a five card major.


Got you.
My 4-card Stayman is getting rusty, but I seem to remember that after 1N 2 2 (no 4cM) it would go 3 here.
Or if you use that sequence for 5-4 GF then 1N 2 2 3 for 5-5 GF.
Either systemation is possible, but you need to distinguish between 5-4 GF and 5-5 GF somehow, just as you need to be able to distinguish between 5-4 INV and 5-5 INV.
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#12 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 05:15

Yeah, the standard meaning for 3 over 2 would be Smolen, showing 4 spades and 5 hearts and right siding any 5-3 fit. Didn't realise anyone plays it the other way around.
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#13 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 12:55

In the UK with old-fashioned Acol bidding, there was the Weissberger convention available, similar to pescetom's 3 bid in his sequence, also showing 5-5 majors. 1NT (15-17/16-18) - 2 (Stayman) - 2 (no 4 card major) - 3 (5/5 majors, asking for 3 card major support).

Old-fashioned Acol didn't have voidwood or exclusion, though, which are useful additions :)
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#14 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 14:42

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-April-19, 12:55, said:

In the UK with old-fashioned Acol bidding, there was the Weissberger convention available, similar to pescetom's 3 bid in his sequence, also showing 5-5 majors. 1NT (15-17/16-18) - 2 (Stayman) - 2 (no 4 card major) - 3 (5/5 majors, asking for 3 card major support).


Thanks for this curiosity, will investigate :)
No real surprise, there are only so many bids available and wheels have to be round.
Using 3 would waste the valuable possibility of a third (3) reply and using 3 the bid could no longer be INV+.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 16:53

In the USA, a very common treatment is to play 3H over 1NT as a 5/5M invite and 3S as 5/5 GF or better). Then the auction goes:

1NT 3S(1)
4D(2) 5D(3)
5NT(4) 6S

(1) 5/5M game force or better
(2) spades, with a good hand (c is H with a good hand; 4h/s are minimum hands)
(3) exclusion
(4) two, no Qs (don't count Ad, although we don't have it)

Cheers,
Mike
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-April-23, 05:37

In America the standard way of showing 5-5 majors and a GF hand is 2 followed by 3.
In the UK, the traditional method is to bid 2 followed by 3, commonly known as Extended Stayman these days but (as Felicity mentions) more properly called Weissberger. This shows a GF hand with 5-5 or 5-4 in the majors and asks Opener to bid a 3 card major.
In my preferred methods, 5-5 majors GF is shown by bidding 2 followed by 3.
Finally, a reasonably popular extension to Texas transfers is to play that a 4 response shows 5-5 majors. If this is in use then it is also normal for 1NT - 4; 4M - 5 to be XRKCB for the major, though some use 4 or 4NT for this when M=. In any case, this is another possible way of handling the hand irrespective of the rest of the NT structure.
(-: Zel :-)

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