BBO Discussion Forums: Individualism - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Individualism

#1 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,453
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 05:27

When searching recently for my tournament, I noticed that the overwhelming majority of tournaments offer on this site are individuals. In my experience, individuals are not a popular event. At the “North London Club”, the annual individual usually attracts the fewest number of players of any competition. Why is it so different online?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#2 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,443
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 05:57

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 05:27, said:

When searching recently for my tournament, I noticed that the overwhelming majority of tournaments offer on this site are individuals. In my experience, individuals are not a popular event. At the “North London Club”, the annual individual usually attracts the fewest number of players of any competition. Why is it so different online?

Because you can play without arranging a partner and you have plenty of people to blame for your bad result.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#3 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,648
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-15, 06:25

View Postgordontd, on 2020-April-15, 05:57, said:

Because you can play without arranging a partner and you have plenty of people to blame for your bad result.


Interesting - I always suspected that individuals are unpopular in clubs because you can't play with your partner and blaming plenty of people for your bad result is not credible.
In any case they seem to produce fairly consistent results when played repeatedly on BBO with a decent number of boards and a common convention card.
0

#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,453
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 07:26

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-15, 06:25, said:

Interesting - I always suspected that individuals are unpopular in clubs because you can't play with your partner and blaming plenty of people for your bad result is not credible.


I don’t know. I don’t mind the occasional individual, but I wouldn’t like them on a regular basis. Especially in a mixed-ability club; it is a crapshoot whether you have a competent partner on a crucial board. At least they are not usually played as IMP pairs, as some of the online ones are. Then this “crucial board” may mean the entire event.

Quote


In any case they seem to produce fairly consistent results when played repeatedly on BBO with a decent number of boards and a common convention card.


Oh.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#5 User is offline   paulg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,567
  • Joined: 2003-April-26
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 2020-April-15, 07:47

They clearly just hit the spot with your traditional BBO user because they have always been popular. They are normally free, short (8 boards), and you don't need a partner. They provide a quick shot of bridge.

I'm it helps that the events are pretty anonymous too; you are unlikely to know anyone, unlike the club individual, so your performance in any one tournament doesn't really matter as there is another one just about to start. And everyone plays 5-card majors and a strong no trump and confers if anything else comes up (DONT, Capp, Landy, 3041/1430, Jacoby).

I doubt many people are playing them with the expectation of winning. They are just having some fun.
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
0

#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,453
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 10:46

View Postpaulg, on 2020-April-15, 07:47, said:

They clearly just hit the spot with your traditional BBO user because they have always been popular. They are normally free, short (8 boards), and you don't need a partner. They provide a quick shot of bridge.


Some are not free, and are longer. Individuals seem to be the main offering of the ACBL, for instance. I guess it stands to reason that lockdown players are different to traditional BBO users, or we’d have been playing already.

Quote

I doubt many people are playing them with the expectation of winning. They are just having some fun.


LOL I guess it depends on your definition of fun!
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#7 User is offline   paulg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,567
  • Joined: 2003-April-26
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 2020-April-15, 11:45

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 10:46, said:

LOL I guess it depends on your definition of fun!

I'm not a fan of individuals either but used one for the first club tournament in the lockdown as I thought it would encourage more people to try BBO without thinking they were letting down their partner.

Individuals are popular in Scotland and the SBU has annual, ranked, individual events.

The top event, Benjamin Trophy, is an invitational individual for the top 19 leading master point scorers together with the six leading master point scorers over the previous three years - nige1, of these forums, is the current holder.

I'm not saying it is a crap shoot, and I'm not wishing nige1 bad luck, but some very good players have won it and finished last when defending the trophy.
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
0

#8 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,648
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-15, 13:39

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 07:26, said:

Oh.


Have you tried running a decent length BBO MP individual on your club, with no outsiders?
I have done so five times now and the results are fairly consistent and also close to my own assessment of individual skill. YMMV. But as some of the people near the top are less experienced or in the limelight of more esteemed partners I can imagine why such tournaments were once not popular in the club.
0

#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,453
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 14:10

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-15, 13:39, said:

Have you tried running a decent length BBO MP individual on your club, with no outsiders?
I have done so five times now and the results are fairly consistent and also close to my own assessment of individual skill. YMMV. But as some of the people near the top are less experienced or in the limelight of more esteemed partners I can imagine why such tournaments were once not popular in the club.


Sorry I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that the better players score well in individuals? This is not breaking news. Better players will usually score well in any form of the game.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#10 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,648
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-15, 14:24

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 14:10, said:

Sorry I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that the better players score well in individuals? This is not breaking news. Better players will usually score well in any form of the game.


I am saying that the better players seem to score consistently well in individuals, more consistently than they do in pairs with their usual partner and in a way that exposes the relative skill between the two partners. This may not be breaking news but it is not the explanation I was given for the previous unpopularity of individual tournaments (almost the contrary).
0

#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,453
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 14:32

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-15, 14:24, said:

I am saying that the better players seem to score consistently well in individuals, more consistently than they do in pairs with their usual partner and in a way that exposes the relative skill between the two partners. This may not be breaking news but it is not the explanation I was given for the previous unpopularity of individual tournaments (almost the contrary).


You were not given this explanation by me.

What I like about club individuals is the social aspect. I cannot fathom the dreariness of playing with a succession of random strangers.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#12 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,648
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-15, 14:49

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 14:32, said:

You were not given this explanation by me.

Long term club members explained to me that they stopped playing club individuals ten years ago because people did not understand each other and the results were random. I arrived later and took this explanation for good. Now that I have tried it I no longer believe the explanation. Maybe they did not enforce a common convention card which probably helps.

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 14:32, said:

What I like about club individuals is the social aspect. I cannot fathom the dreariness of playing with a succession of random strangers.

I agree and can think of little more dreary - perhaps a succession of non-random robots. But to each his own.
0

#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,453
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-April-15, 15:17

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-15, 14:49, said:

Long term club members explained to me that they stopped playing club individuals ten years ago because people did not understand each other and the results were random. I arrived later and took this explanation for good. Now that I have tried it I no longer believe the explanation. Maybe they did not enforce a common convention card which probably helps.


Yes, and this should be as simple as possible, to avoid treatments that require a lot of discussion.

Quote

I agree and can think of little more dreary - perhaps a succession of non-random robots. But to each his own.


I think I would take the robots. But it’s close.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#14 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,803
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-April-15, 15:42

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 05:27, said:

When searching recently for my tournament, I noticed that the overwhelming majority of tournaments offer on this site are individuals.

The overwhelming majority of tournaments on BBO are *Robot* tournaments. Since of course, a lot of people don't have partners online at the same time and like playing instantly with robots.

If you exclude those tournaments, when I look at the list of tournaments starting within the next 2 hours, I see 8 individual tournaments (3 of those Goulash, which hardly count) and 59 pairs tournaments.

So like the club, the overwhelming majority of 'real bridge' tournaments are Pairs.
1

#15 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,110
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Writing, learning about life and bridge from others, Poodles, helping Poodles write

Posted 2020-April-15, 21:20

A lot of sociable people enjoy individual contests. Just go to the races and see people gamble on who will win a race. Bridge is much better because the individual is engaged. Each contestant can simultaneously play the hand, the results are revealed there is no fighting or blaming and the best player wins, Then everyone has a friendly beer at the end. What's the problem?
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; N'écris jamais une lettre et n'en détruis jamais une.
0

#16 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,648
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-16, 03:12

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-15, 15:17, said:

Yes, and this should be as simple as possible, to avoid treatments that require a lot of discussion.


The only conventions I allowed them (other than those inherent in the system) are a minimalist Stayman, Jacoby Transfers and plain Blackwood. Even then the Stayman entailed endless discussion before everyone grudgingly gave up their favourite bells and whistles :)
0

#17 User is offline   paulg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,567
  • Joined: 2003-April-26
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 2020-April-16, 03:19

The SBU is running the Harrison Trophy on BBO at the end of this month - https://www.sbu.org....harrison-trophy

The Harrison Trophy is an individual event for Regional Masters up to Grand Masters. These SBU ranks are equivalent to EBU ranks, if you believe it is as easy to win master points in the two countries.
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
0

#18 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,648
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-April-16, 03:40

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-April-15, 15:42, said:

The overwhelming majority of tournaments on BBO are *Robot* tournaments. Since of course, a lot of people don't have partners online at the same time and like playing instantly with robots.

If you exclude those tournaments, when I look at the list of tournaments starting within the next 2 hours, I see 8 individual tournaments (3 of those Goulash, which hardly count) and 59 pairs tournaments.

So like the club, the overwhelming majority of 'real bridge' tournaments are Pairs.


Not sure how the new dynamics of 50K users and tournament restrictions impact play with robots, but they are certainly making it harder to enter free individual tournaments, which falsifies this comparison somewhat. There are a lot of people who would like to play Free Express but end up doing something else instead.

[EDIT 10.30PM WET] I just managed to enter a Free TCR90/80 Tournament after 90 minutes of trying. They appear regularly with 79/80 users already registered. I would guess that means at least 3K people per hour who want to play individual but are forced to do something else.
0

#19 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,503
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2020-April-16, 04:19

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-15, 14:49, said:

Long term club members explained to me that they stopped playing club individuals ten years ago because people did not understand each other and the results were random. I arrived later and took this explanation for good. Now that I have tried it I no longer believe the explanation. Maybe they did not enforce a common convention card which probably helps.

For professional players, individuals tend to be a complete waste of time. For obvious reasons, they prefer teams, where one sponsor can support up to 5 professionals. In face-to-face competition, they get what they want.

IMO, however, if everybody has to adopt the same convention-card, then individuals are a good test of skill (arguably an excellent test of skill -- because there are few disclosure problems).

A necessary proviso is that the best bridge-players tend to choose each other as partners and team-mates. This affects results in other forms of competition.

For example suppose that you have 6 tables of players: At teams, the best of the 6 teams will win most of the time, In a Howell movement, the best of the 12 pairs, will win less often. In an individual which of the 24 players win is more of a lottery :)
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users