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What to play after strong 2[clubs]

#1 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2020-April-07, 01:39

Hi all,

Reluctantly going back to natural (to please a good partner) after quite some years of strong club and the like.

Whats best to play as a responce to a strong 2?

I feel strongly towards not playing steps to show number of controls og points or anything like it.

Also 2 as a waiting bid, is something it would be hard to take me away from. (Maybe a two-way bid.)

But what about the other replies?

My experience is limited. My thoughts are something like:

- A bid that takes up space, should show define a hand proberly, especially after 2, as we are already high, and have not yet shown a suit. So even a meager 2 or 2 slightly preempts the auction, making things more difficult for the opener, that can have a wide variety of hands.
- On the other hand, on a large frequency of hands, the knowledge of responders distribution could be important to opener.

I saw that Sabine and Roy played 2 = Waiting or hearts (Combined with Kokish). Sounds smart if for instance it somehow combines with 2+ = Transfer.

Any comments welcome.

Thx in advance.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2020-April-07, 03:05

I personally play something relatively simple:
  • 2 Waiting relay
  • 2 5+ hearts with at least two of the top three spot cards (at least KQTxx)
  • 2 5+ spades with at least two of the top three spot cards (at least KQTxx)
  • 2NT Balanced with values (8+). This is kind of a rare bid, often the relay is better bridge
  • 3 6+ clubs with at least two of the top three spot cards (at least KQxxxx)
  • 3 6+ diamonds with at least two of the top three spot cards (at least KQxxxx)


Having been on the opening end, seeing partner jump after I made a strong 2 opening on a moderate suit is quite frustrating. Ideally I would like to be able to open 2 with some hands at the upper range of semiforcing (let's say around 21 points and a long but not running suit). If partner's natural responses are weaker than the ones above the risk that they will jump to show their suit is too big, and I can only show my shape at the 3 level. Keep in mind they'll frequently jump in your own short suits. Of course if your strong openings are always solid (so you just open 1M with ~21 points) this is not as big an issue.
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#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-April-22, 05:29

The easiest way is arguably:-

2 = waiting: SP; or positive without a good suit
2 = (double) negative
2 = positive with a good 5+ suit
2NT = positive with a good 5+ heart suit
3 = positive with a good 5+ suit
3 = positive with a good 6+ suit and no 4 card major
3 = positive with a good 5+ diamond suit and 4 hearts
3 = positive with a good 5+ diamond suit and 4 spades


I have also played transfers from 2 and up and that is a good method if you want to split up the positives and semi-positives more clearly but it is also not without certain issues that you need to sort out.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#4 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 14:05

Zel's method but with (non-mandatory) transfers is somewhat popular and pretty easy. So

2 = waiting; semi-positive or positive without a good suit
2 = bust
2 = transfer to clubs
2NT = not used, or a special three-suited hand (described below)
3 = transfers
3 = 5-5 minors (?)

A fun and pretty simple tweak is to use both 2 and 2 as busts, but specifically in that suit. This lets you fold into the 2 opener the old-school strong twos in hearts and spades (8 playing tricks), since opener with that hand can pass the 2M bust response. And now your 1 and 1 opening bids are more limited.

2 = waiting; semi-positive or positive without a good suit
2 = worthless in hearts (not four small hearts, not three small hearts and shortness, less than a K in high cards); may be worth a trick in another suit.
2 = worthless in spades, but worth at least one trick in hearts and may be worth a trick in other suits.
2NT = (4441) or (5440), stoppers in each of the three suits. Opener bids cheapest four-card suit. If it's one of responder's three suits, responder then bids their shortness and we're on the way to slam. If opener hits responder's shortness, responder bids NT and you use whatever NT systems you have to check back.

A non-obvious benefit of this structure is that it means you will never need to jump shift from 1M into a fake suit. A 6322 or 6331 hand that's too strong for 1M-1something-3M should have eight playing tricks and so it can be opened 2C and stop safely in 2M if responder has a bust. This jump-shifts-are-into-real-suits feature plus the limiting of 1M openers restores a bit of the benefits of strong club systems to a natural one.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 14:39

View PostOleBerg, on 2020-April-07, 01:39, said:

I saw that Sabine and Roy played 2 = Waiting or hearts (Combined with Kokish). Sounds smart if for instance it somehow combines with 2+ = Transfer.

This sounds very interesting, especially for those of us that play Kokish primarily to gain a second 2NT level. Comments anyone?


View PostJLilly, on 2020-April-25, 14:05, said:

Zel's method but with (non-mandatory) transfers is somewhat popular and pretty easy. So

2 = waiting; semi-positive or positive without a good suit
2 = bust
2 = transfer to clubs
2NT = not used, or a special three-suited hand (described below)
3 = transfers
3 = 5-5 minors (?)

It looks interesting but a bit fragmented: if 2 shows clubs then could not 2NT show diamonds, and so on for 3 and 3?
That would give opener an intermediate 'step' bid for each suit, like South African Texas, which could be used in some way.
It would also leave 3 available to opener when responder is showing spades.
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 14:48

We play Kokish with major-suit negatives — to play opposite balanced 20-22-. We also use direct and delayed 2NT bids to show weak minor holdings.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 15:11

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-25, 14:48, said:

We play Kokish with major-suit negatives — to play opposite balanced 20-22-. We also use direct and delayed 2NT bids to show weak minor holdings.


Using delayed 2NT to show weak minor holdings is interesting, needs some thought.
We use the direct 2NT to show minors 5-5, but that is basically just a way of ensuring it doesn't happen.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 18:09

My partners prefer control responses but I like Zelandakh's suggestion.

IMO, you should also consider ...
  • Adjust your notrump ranges, so that 2 includes a weaker balanced range. e.g.
  • Define your 2N opener as BAL 22-23 HCP, so that 2 includes a BAL 20-21 HCP.
  • Define 2 - 2 - 2N = BAL 24+ HCP,
  • Define a Kokish variant 2 - 2 - 2 = NAT 5+ or BAL 20-21 HCP.

Now, (Preferred option) After 2 - 2 - 2 - ??
  • 2 = ART Normal relay. 5+ HCP.
  • 2N = ART NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .
  • 3 = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .
  • 3 = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .
  • 3 = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .

Notice that there is no need for transfers because all suits except have already been bid.

OR, (slightly, inferior, IMO), you can define
2 - 2M = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ cards.
Then after 2 - 2 - 2 - 2N = ART 0-4. 5+ 5+ mm.
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#9 User is offline   JLilly 

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Posted 2020-April-26, 20:38

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-25, 14:39, said:

{the method with transfers} looks interesting but a bit fragmented: if 2 shows clubs then could not 2NT show diamonds, and so on for 3 and 3? That would give opener an intermediate 'step' bid for each suit, like South African Texas, which could be used in some way.
It would also leave 3 available to opener when responder is showing spades.

2NT is skipped as a transfer because the most common hand type for a 2 opener is the very-strong-and-balanced one, and it's nice to not wrong-side NT with such unequal strength.
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-27, 13:27

View PostJLilly, on 2020-April-26, 20:38, said:

2NT is skipped as a transfer because the most common hand type for a 2 opener is the very-strong-and-balanced one, and it's nice to not wrong-side NT with such unequal strength.


I agree about avoiding wrong-siding 3NT of course, that's why we play responder's 2NT as the rather unlikely 5-5 minors rather than some balanced option.
But surely we also want to avoid wrong-siding 6 or 7 with such unequal strength (and probable tenaces of opener).
If a minor single suit is strong enough to break the relay (HHxxxx with distribution) then transfer sounds to me like a good idea more often than not.
That's why I am thinking about abandoning semi-natural responses in the first place.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-27, 13:47

View Postnige1, on 2020-April-25, 18:09, said:

IMO, you should also consider ...
  • Adjust your notrump ranges, so that 2 includes a weaker balanced range. e.g.
  • Define your 2N opener as BAL 22-23 HCP, so that 2 includes a BAL 20-21 HCP.
  • Define 2 - 2 - 2N = BAL 24+ HCP,
  • Define a Kokish variant 2 - 2 - 2 = NAT 5+ or BAL 20-21.

Now, (Preferred option) After 2 - 2 - 2 - ??
  • 2 = ART Normal relay. 5+ HCP.
  • 2N = ART NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .
  • 3 = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .
  • 3 = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .
  • 3 = NAT NEG 0-4 HCP 5+ .

Notice that there is no need for transfers because all suits except have already been bid.


This is so elegant that I feel obliged to try it.
If partner complains I will give him your address :)
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-April-27, 17:31

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-27, 13:47, said:

This is so elegant that I feel obliged to play it. If partner complains I will give him your address
:) A small refinement: According to my partners ...
1N opener = BAL 14-16 HCP is a better range. De facto, that is the opening range that most experts use, no matter what they declare on their convention cards :)

This agreement would imply adjusting notrump ranges down by 1 HCP i.e.
  • 2N jump rebid = NAT 17-18 HCP.
  • 2 - 2 - 2 = NAT 5+ or BAL 19-20 HCP.
  • 2N opener = BAL 21-22 HCP.

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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-28, 03:36

View Postnige1, on 2020-April-27, 17:31, said:

:) A small refinement: According to my partners ...
1N opener = BAL 14-16 HCP is a better range. De facto, that is the opening range that most experts use, no matter what they declare on their convention cards :)


I've thought about moving to 14-16, but I'm still on the fence - I fear a signicant MP cost with many 14s. Perhaps if I was playing something other than 2/1 and competing with experts who all open low it would be more justified. Also I could not convince all partners to change and I would probably end up making some bad judgements when switching agreement.
Luckily my RA is not too anal about upgrading a good 14 into 15-17, so not much pressure in that sense either.
Disclosing NT ranges is a problem in any case, as they really depend upon the type of hand.
I guess our real undiscussed agreements are something like:
14-16 5332
14.5-16.5 5332
14.5-17 5m332
15-17 4333 4432
but I doubt many opponents would be grateful for the explanation anyway.
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-April-28, 10:48

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-28, 03:36, said:

.
I guess our real undiscussed agreements are something like:
14-16 5332
14.5-16.5 5332
14.5-17 5m332
15-17 4333 4432
but I doubt many opponents would be grateful for the explanation anyway.


I think you are wrong, and you seem to have a CPU as well.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-29, 14:43

View PostVampyr, on 2020-April-28, 10:48, said:

I think you are wrong, and you seem to have a CPU as well.


Perhaps, I would hope not. I was just trying to analyse how I upgrade for the benefit of discussion. If you like, I will ask my partner what he thinks our agreements are in this area. We only get to play once a week these days because he is studying hard online, so the last time I upgraded a 14 HCP is sometime in February/March and I do not know if he noticed it or asked himself why. If we do have a CPU it is that he occasionally downgrades a good 4333 18 HCP into 1NT, a habit that I detest but have not been able to completely eradicate :)
Luckily most players and directors here understand and agree that upgrading strong hands and downgrading weak hands is just bridge. If one is systematically opening most 14 point hands and partner is explaining 15-17 that is another matter, I agree.
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-May-11, 14:53

View Postpescetom, on 2020-April-28, 03:36, said:

I guess our real undiscussed agreements are something like:
14-16 5332
14.5-16.5 5332
14.5-17 5m332
15-17 4333 4432

This would best be described as a good 14-17 (or 14+-17 if you prefer) in short (announcement) form, with details ideally available on the CC. If players ask about a call they should typically learn everything there is to know rather than having to go through 20 questions.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#17 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2020-May-12, 14:46

Popular where I play is to let 20-21 NT be in 2, while opening 2NT shows 22-24.

Responses:

- 2 = Waiting. GF or intending to play 2NT vs 20-21.
- 2/3 = Weak. To play vs 20-21 NT.

The benefit is being able to stop in 2M and 3m vs 20-21 NT. Another thing is that 2-2; 2NT-Transfer becomes game forcing, so you could play that opener only accepts with support.
These weak responses also work okay if you want to include even weaker NT hands into 2, for instance if you don't want to open 1m with 18-19 NT.
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#18 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2020-May-12, 14:53

View PostOleBerg, on 2020-April-07, 01:39, said:

I saw that Sabine and Roy played 2 = Waiting or hearts (Combined with Kokish). Sounds smart if for instance it somehow combines with 2+ = Transfer.


I actually think that they don't play "Kokish" in the true sense. They use transfer responses which lets them stop in 2M (more advanced version compared to my previous post). If I remember correctly:

2-2 (hearts or waiting)
2 = 20-21 NT or GF with hearts. Non-forcing!

I think the idea is that you "never get passed out" with the game forcing hand, because then you have a 10+ card heart fit. However I think that actually happened to them once in a major tournament :D

Here's some notes I wrote a while back about play 2 as 18-19 NT or any GF: http://snortingmarad...clubs18_19.html
The idea then was to use 2NT as 22-24 and put 20-21 NT into a 2 multi opening. You could switch 18-19 into 20-21 though in these notes and play the same.
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#19 User is offline   raspeball 

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Posted 2020-May-13, 16:55

View PostKungsgeten, on 2020-May-12, 14:53, said:

I actually think that they don't play "Kokish" in the true sense. They use transfer responses which lets them stop in 2M (more advanced version compared to my previous post). If I remember correctly:

2-2 (hearts or waiting)
2 = 20-21 NT or GF with hearts. Non-forcing!

I think the idea is that you "never get passed out" with the game forcing hand, because then you have a 10+ card heart fit. However I think that actually happened to them once in a major tournament :D

Here's some notes I wrote a while back about play 2 as 18-19 NT or any GF: http://snortingmarad...clubs18_19.html
The idea then was to use 2NT as 22-24 and put 20-21 NT into a 2 multi opening. You could switch 18-19 into 20-21 though in these notes and play the same.

Here is an intersting idea from Richard Pavlicek:link:

2=0-4 HCP (no ace) or 8+ HCP or A+K
2=5-7 HCP or an ace (no A+K)
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#20 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2020-July-02, 16:02

We play:

2 = strong 2 in a major / 22-23 bal / any game force.

Usually opener has a plan how to bid his strong hand so responder tries not to get in his way:
2 = waiting FG
2 = very weak (0-3)
2 = a good 6-card suit (any)

Opener's rebids over 2:
2 = hearts or balanced (responder must bid 2)
2 = natural (2NT asks for second suit, other bids are natural)
2NT = clubs (3 asks for second suit, other bids are natural)
3 = diamonds without clubs (3 asks for second suit, other bids are natural)
3 = 5+ diamonds & 4+ clubs
higher = sets trump
Opener's 2M then 3NT shows a very strong 5M332
Opener's trf to 3m then 3NT shows a 1-suiter (NF - bid 4 instead if very strong)

Opener's rebids over 2:
pass is an option
2 is NF
2NT shows 22-23 (here you should probably adjust your 2NT structure)

Opener's rebids over 2:
2NT = transfer to your suit
other = natural (responder bids his suit without fit, raises or jumps with fit)
Responder shows a solid suit with the cheapest NT (1st step then asks for length, 2nd step for the suit - just in case).
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