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Zirconia 2[diamonds] bid and Gazzilli?

#1 User is offline   Periiz 

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Posted 2020-March-23, 16:54

So I recently read about the Zirconia convention to help on 1 - 1 auctions.

Summary of the convention rebids
1 - 1
1NT = 4+ diamonds or exactly 2-5-3-3
2 = 3 card spade support
Other bids denying 3 card spade support

So, what about the point range of the 2 ? I think it makes sense for it to be unlimited (or at least very wide-ranging), since opener can make a next move if the responder tries to sign-off (similar to the unbalanced 1 opening with transfer rebids). But could it be a 3-5-(32) hand on the 18-19 count?

Also, one could add a Gazzilli feel to the 1NT rebid, making it something like 4+ diamonds or 2-5-3-3 or "any" 16+ hand. Now then, would that limit the 2 rebid to something like 11-15? Would you bid the Gazzilli with 16-17 or even 18+ points and 3 card spade support? Does it make sense to make the 2 rebid unbalanced if strong, otherwise go through Gazzilli (or the opposite)? Or would you rather make the 1NT rebid deny 3 card spade even if strong?

If you choose to play a Gazzilli style, what happens on this auction?
1 - 1
1NT - 2 (less than 8 points)
2 is this forcing? Or just a good ~17-18 but passable? This last question may just be a general Gazzilli doubt I have.

Lots of questions here... :unsure:

Cheers
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#2 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2020-March-24, 05:00

I've never played Zirconia, but with a "4+ spades" partner do play 2 as 3 card support. This is in conjunction with 2 Gazzilli. If you are playing 1NT or 2 as Gazzilli then the answer to the first question is surely that 2 is limited, because any strong hand is better starting with the strong bid. Without a Gazzilli then of course 2 may be strong, as it is forcing and can be followed up with another bid later.

It seems odd to me that you would choose to play 1NT rather than 2 as Gazzilli as one of the benefits of 2 is that weaker fairly balanced hands can bid 1NT and play there, while a forcing 1NT forces you too high, perhaps. Nevertheless, if you did do that then yes it does restrict the 2 range, and partner can pick a cheap contract which you pass. If 1NT is strong, then it will not deny 3 spades as you will rebid spades to show them.

On your final question, I play that a 2-level rebid from opener is not forcing, except that it does force if responder has only 4 spades. He has a choice of 2NT or 3. If you had 18/19+ and wanted to force, you should rebid at the 3-level.
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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-March-24, 08:08

View PostPeriiz, on 2020-March-23, 16:54, said:

So, what about the point range of the 2 ? I think it makes sense for it to be unlimited (or at least very wide-ranging), since opener can make a next move if the responder tries to sign-off (similar to the unbalanced 1 opening with transfer rebids). But could it be a 3-5-(32) hand on the 18-19 count?

Article said:

All [other rebids] are unchanged, except for the added negative inference that opener does not have three-card spade support.

The 2 rebid must cover the whole 1 range, then.
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#4 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2020-March-24, 10:38

When Gazzilli is not in use, I prefer 2 to cover all hands with three-card support. This fixes the "bridge world death hand" where you have enough for a 3 rebid but also three-card support for spades. As mentioned, you can make another try after the 2 bid and partner's 2M signoff.

When Gazzilli is in use, I prefer to let 2 be limited to around 11-16 with the stronger hand going through Gazzilli and rebidding 2. The advantage here is that you can stop in 2 with the strong hand opposite utter trash, which you cannot do after 1-1-2-2X because the strong hand needs to make another call.

For much the reason described above, I play 1-1-<Gazzilli>-2-2 as ~17-18 and NF. With stronger hands over 2 I'd bid three-something (or 2NT) and then pattern out.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#5 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-March-24, 23:38

Sir, pardon me, does this discussion really come under NATURAL bidding.
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#6 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2020-March-25, 09:20

There’s a “natural bidding” forum and a “non-natural systems” forum but no forum for “conventions in a natural system” even though most people play at least some of these!

Zirconia falls under this category, just like new minor force or responses to 2 strong (both of which I’ve seen in this forum but arguably have no logical place).
Adam W. Meyerson
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#7 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2020-March-26, 02:01

We've been playing Zircornia for a couple of years and have made som modifications. I don't know how useful they will be to the OP, but thought I'd share them here anyway. Our 1H opeening is limited to about 11--16 though.


FIRST MODIFICATION: 1NT includes minimum hands with 6+H

We do not include "Gazzilli hands" into the 1NT rebid, since 1H is limited. We do however include another hand type in addition to the original convention:

a) 2-5-3-3, 11--13(14).
b) 4+ diamonds
c) 6+ hearts, minimum strength (about 10--13).

The third hand type means that 1H-1S; 2H shows extras (14--16). Rebidding 3H shows a seven card suit. It might seem more natural to include the 14--16 range in 1NT, but we feel that continuations get better this way. After 1H-1S; 1NT-2H (preference like in the original convention) opener will pass even with 6+H.

After 1H-1S; 1NT-2C; (invitational+) opener will bid 2D (3+) or 2H with minimum. Other bids shows a max with 4+D and establishes a game force.


SECOND MODIFICATION: Shortness ask after 3 card spade fit

Another gadget is after 1H-1S; 2D. Here we play 2NT as non-forcing invitational, while 3C is an artificial game force with 5+S. The 3C bid primarily asks shortness:

3D = No shortness (that they want to show).
3H = Singleton club.
3S = Singleton diamond.
3NT = Good 6+H. No shortness that they want to show.
4m = Void.


THIRD MODIFICATION: Using responder's 2S as a "relay"

In three auctions responder's 2S is used as an "artificial" (in the sense that it doesn't promise extra length in spades) GF bid.

1H-1S; 1NT-2C; 2D-2S; (Opener has shown a minimum with 2-5-3-3 or 4+D)
2NT = 2-5-3-3
3C = 1-5-4-3
3D = 5-5
3H = 6-4
3S = 2-5-4-2, no club stopper.
3NT = 2-5-4-2 with club stopper.

1H-1S; 1NT-2C; 2H-2S; (Opener has shown a minimum with 6+H)
2NT = No shortness we want to show.
3m = 6-4 (after 1H-1S opener can choose to show the minor suit first, or to show the six card suit)
3H = Any singleton. 3S asks and opener responds in steps.
3S = Void.
4m = Void.

1H-1S; 2C-2D; 2H-2S; (Opener has shown a minimum with 4+C, and the 2D bid was INV+)
2NT = Diamond stopper.
3C = 1-5-3-4 without diamond stopper. We rebid 3C after 1H-1S; 2C-2D; with a minimum and 5-5 (since extras and 5-5 rebid 3C after 1H-1S).
3D = 0-5-4-4
3H = 6-4
3S = 2-5-2-4, no diamond stopper.
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#8 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-March-26, 03:49

View PostKungsgeten, on 2020-March-26, 02:01, said:

Another gadget is after 1H-1S; 2D. Here we play 2NT as non-forcing invitational

I think you can afford to use 2 over 1-1; 2 as an INV+ relay ("range ask"), assuming 2 on a 4-3 fit after

1-1
2-2
P

is not much worse on average than 2 on a 5-2 fit after

1-1
2-2
P.
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#9 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2020-March-26, 09:05

View Postnullve, on 2020-March-26, 03:49, said:

I think you can afford to use 2 over 1-1; 2 as an INV+ relay ("range ask"), assuming 2 on a 4-3 fit after

1-1
2-2
P

is not much worse on average than 2 on a 5-2 fit after

1-1
2-2
P.


My partner much prefers 5-2 fits to 4-3 fits. I generally think 5-2 fits do better, but that might just be a feeling. Here responder have a choice, but there could absolutely be gains playing 2 as artificial. One thing to remember though is that opener might have 6 hearts and 3 spades, so if its a part-score we might play in a 4-3 instead of a 6-2.
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#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-April-22, 05:40

Silly question perhaps but if giving up a natural 1NT rebid, is it not simpler just to use transfers, so 1NT shows clubs, 2 diamonds, 2 6+ hearts? If you feel you need that 2 could also be a 3 card spade raise though the main points that that addresses are already covered by transferring and then bidding spades, so there could well be a better use. Does this not just cover all the issues without having to remember the ins and outs of a highly specific convention?
(-: Zel :-)

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#11 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-April-23, 02:23

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-April-22, 05:40, said:

Does this not just cover all the issues

The Zirconia sequence corresponding to

1-1
2*-2N**

* 4+ D
** NAT INV

is

1-1
1N*-2**
2***,

* 4+ D or 2533
** INV+ relay
*** bare minimum

making it possible to stop in 2, 2 or 2.
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#12 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 07:44

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-April-22, 05:40, said:

Silly question perhaps but if giving up a natural 1NT rebid, is it not simpler just to use transfers, so 1NT shows clubs, 2 diamonds, 2 6+ hearts? If you feel you need that 2 could also be a 3 card spade raise though the main points that that addresses are already covered by transferring and then bidding spades, so there could well be a better use. Does this not just cover all the issues without having to remember the ins and outs of a highly specific convention?


1-1-2 is not a very good sequence for natural bidding. There are several possible problems:

1. The fourth suit by responder is 3, making it awkward to show both invitational and forcing diamond raises, notrump bids, heart raises, spade rebids, etc.
2. If opener has extras, he risks being passed in 2 when responder has slightly less than invitational values (and game is good).
3. If opener has extras, we must play at 2NT or above after responder's 2 correction, even if responder's hand is very poor.

Playing transfer rebids really only helps with the second of these problems. Zirconia helps with them all:

1. After 1-1-1NT! (diamonds), the fourth suit is available at 2. This means you can play sequences like:

1 - 1 - 1NT! - 2NT/3/3/3 all natural and game forcing
1 - 1 - 1NT! - 2! - 2 - 2/2NT/3/3 all natural and invitational

2. Since opener's second bid is forcing, there is no risk of being passed out.
3. In fact, opener can find out whether responder has enough for game opposite extras and still play at the two-level if he doesn't:

1 - 1 - 1NT! - 2/2/2 (not enough for game opposite extras)... and opener can pass (or correct 2 to 2 if not holding 4+, or force game if strong enough)
1 - 1 - 1NT! - 2... responder shows enough for game opposite extras and opener has all of 2+ available to describe his hand in a game forcing sequence

In addition Zirconia lets you distinguish three vs. four card spade raises (via 1-1-2 three-card raise).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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