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Asserting fit and slam-suitability after 2N-transfer

#1 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2020-February-13, 08:39

Over 2N-3; 3 (nearly forced), we currently play 3* = asking whether opener has 2 (3N) or 3+ (4); 3N = 45 NF (if slammish, a 45 responder starts with 3 instead), together with (some kind of) muppet Stayman.
The downside is offering the chance of a lead-director double (or lack thereof) over 3; in exchange, we get to right-side 4 when that's the right contract, and can also distinguish between 54m (directly bids the minor over 3) and 55m (goes through 3* first) (if opener has no fit) -- so overall we quite like this.
However, here in France, it seems extremely common, including among good players, to instead play fitted transfer acceptances, i.e. 2N-3; 3 = fit, 3N = no fit. You lose the possibility to signoff in 3 with weak hands, but instead get a full cuebidding level between 3 and 4 on slam hands.
In our system, over 3*, opener could also choose to cue just to cater for the possibility that responder is slammish (so 4m = minor cue, the spade cue is not available but such is life), but that seems just like gratuitously leaking info to the opps most of the time. Always bidding 4 with a fit only leaves one intermediate non-signoff (4) to responder so that doesn't seem to buy much either. Any thoughts on the best way to use the half-level (4, 4, 4) that we have available with fitted hands after 2N-3; 3-3*?
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-February-13, 08:48

Why do you play 3 nearly forced ?

We play new suit = Hxx/HHxxx in the suit bid H=AKQ, 3N/4 as min/max with 4 (you can argue which way round to play these) which gets rid of a lot of the fit hands straight up.
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#3 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2020-February-13, 10:37

Mostly because that's "standard" and we never discussed other superaccepts...
We actually play 2N-3; 3 = 5233 exactly, which helps when responder is 35 (transfer followups).
Do you think the wrongsiding of games after a superaccept at 4(M-1) is worth the few (well, I don't have a good intuition of how many) additional slams you get to?
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-February-13, 15:49

View Postantonylee, on 2020-February-13, 10:37, said:

Mostly because that's "standard" and we never discussed other superaccepts...
We actually play 2N-3; 3 = 5233 exactly, which helps when responder is 35 (transfer followups).
Do you think the wrongsiding of games after a superaccept at 4(M-1) is worth the few (well, I don't have a good intuition of how many) additional slams you get to?


We haven't had an issue with wrongsiding games in this type of auction, although it could happen.
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#5 User is offline   Povratnik 

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Posted 2020-February-14, 16:54

Maybe it's off topic, but I am curious about your base* criteria. Tried to deduct it, but failed.

* base criteria:
With what kind of hand you bid 3 and with what kind of hand you bid 3

(Muppet discovers any major fit and it is always played by right hand. Obviously it's something about slam possibilities, but I failed to grasp exactly what...)

Could you give some example hands?
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#6 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2020-February-15, 04:37

3: 1 or both 4cM, or 54
... 3: <4, <5
... ... 3: 4
... ... 3: puppet to 3N -- to play, or slammish 54, or others.
... ... 3N: 54, NF
... 3: 4+
... ... 3: "do you have 4 or 5?" (actually this has problems similar to the originally given auction, do you bid 4 with 5 or something else?)
... ... 3N: to play
... 3: 5

3: transfer, possibly 4 as well
... 3: mostly forced
... ... 3: "do you have 2 or 3?" -- then over 3N (=2): 4m=55, 4=55, 4=45 but too strong for 3N.
... ... 3N: 54, NF

The general structure can be remembered as "After 3 by either player, invert the meanings of 3 and 3N" (a trick taught to me by my former partner).
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#7 User is offline   Povratnik 

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Posted 2020-February-15, 21:21

So your choice has nothing with strength and slam interest, it's based on distribution exclusively...

It's pretty complicated, I need to think a bit. For now, I see an obvious flaw - 4 is frequently played by wrong hand. Don't yet see a benefit that would make up for that. An example hand would be useful...

You don't separately mention distributions with 53 and 35. It seems 53 is included in 3, but I'm not sure whether is 35 included in 3 or 3...
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#8 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2020-February-17, 03:55

4 is played from the wrong hand only with 55 where there's no fit, and with slam-forcing 45, so overall not so often.
(53)Ms either way are handled by transfering to the long major; opener relay-breaks at 3(M+1) with 2M5oM and responder's next bid is a transfer. So e.g. 2N-3; 3N! now P=to play, 4=, 4=, 4=, 4= (probably it would be best to play e.g. 4= and 4+ = various hands, e.g. ", responding to a hypothetical 4 kickback" but these are exceptionally rare and not really worth the memory load).
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-February-17, 04:31

View Postantonylee, on 2020-February-17, 03:55, said:

4 is played from the wrong hand only with 55 where there's no fit, and with slam-forcing 45, so overall not so often.
(53)Ms either way are handled by transfering to the long major; opener relay-breaks at 3(M+1) with 2M5oM and responder's next bid is a transfer. So e.g. 2N-3; 3N! now P=to play, 4=, 4=, 4=, 4= (probably it would be best to play e.g. 4= and 4+ = various hands, e.g. ", responding to a hypothetical 4 kickback" but these are exceptionally rare and not really worth the memory load).


What do you play 2N-4m as ? we put all the 5-5 majors where you're either to-play or slamgoing into 4, if you play texas transfers you can use 4. This rightsides many of the 5-5s
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