[sheilafran]

Please can the experts help.... bidding goes 2♥2♠3♥double ... is this a penalty double????

[apollo1201]

Hi sheilafran. I’m supposing 2H is weak and giving you my (non expert) feeling.

I’d say it is some cooperative action to inform partner we have an interesting hand but no clear cut action, usually w/o S fit, w/o H stop or a fragile one, and therefore some minor cards. Something like:

Qx
xx
AJxxx
KQxx

Maybe you have to play 4S if he has 6 or 5 strong, or 5m, 3NT in the unlikely event partner has something to stop H, but also just a partscore if the overcall was (very) min (eg. AKJxx xx Kx xxxx).

You can probably assign a meaning like bid 4S if your overcall is sound and bid 3 if not with an invitational raise, but it is a bit restrictive and you’ll have more often hands that are hard to express and where a single bid other than X could be too unilateral (bypass 3NT, expresses more than we have in a suit and hides another suit...).

Partner is supposed to to sth intelligent over that X, knowing you’ll have a decent hand opposite. They might leave it in if green vs red opps but it is rare.

[FelicityR]

Bidding after a weak 2♥ opener and a 2♠ overcall, with opener's partner then raising to 3♥ is based on The Law of Total Tricks. Occasionally opener's partner will raise to 3♥ on only 2 card support.

It's an interesting question, and I am actually unsure myself. I would have taken it as competitive but the logic of having a competitive double here doesn't quite sit comfortably. Thankfully, I have a range of bridge books covering a range of subjects. Please give me a day or two to see if it is covered in one of them.

I am at least honest enough to admit there's a hole in my bidding knowledge here...I'll be interested what others (more advanced than me) say here.

[FelicityR]

 apollo1201, on 2020-January-25, 02:15, said:

Hi sheilafran. I’m supposing 2H is weak and giving you my (non expert) feeling.

I’d say it is some cooperative action to inform partner we have an interesting hand but no clear cut action, usually w/o S fit, w/o H stop or a fragile one, and therefore some minor cards. Something like:

Yes, that's how I would have interpreted it, too. Thanks for confirming what I felt about this.

[awm]

When opponents bid and raise a suit (showing 8+ or often 9+ cards there) you’re pretty unlikely to hold a pure penalty double. If you do have such a hand, partner (who is quite short in their suit) will often make a balancing double for you.

Hands where you have the unbid suits or just general values without a clear fit for partner are much more common. Most players use double in “opponents-bid-and-raise” auctions for one of these meanings (tends towards true takeout at lower levels and general values at higher levels). Partner can leave these doubles in if that seems best but will normally remove them with extra distribution.

Note that bid-and-rebid auctions are different; for example 1H-pass-1S-X-2H-X because one opponent is bidding a suit “by himself” and they could easily have only 6-7 cards there. Most people would call this one penalty.

[Tramticket]

 sheilafran, on 2020-January-25, 01:17, said:

2♥2♠3♥double ... is this a penalty double????

Double is whatever you and partner have agreed it to be. It is best to agree some rules about when you will treat a double as penalties. It is perfectly possible to agree that this is a penalty double, but the problem is that the opponents are likely to have a nine-card fit and you will rarely have enough trump length and quality to want to make a penalty double.

Personally we would play that the double shows values and asks partner to "do something sensible".

[mikeh]

I’m with awm and tt here.

It is possible to agree that this is a penalty double but if you were playing with an expert, had had no system discussions at all (maybe her partner got ill and you were sitting in), your partner would expect the double to be takeout. Yes, you are forcing to the 4-level with no assurance of a great fit, but this is far more useful than the rare penalty double. As awm says, when you do have the penalty, partner may be able to reopen with a double. Admittedly, that won’t happen every time, so an occasional penalty goes astray.

Meanwhile, say you hold Qx xxx Axxx AJxx and have this sequence. What do you bid?

If I had no double available, I’d be bidding 4S and hoping partner has 6 of the suit. But if he were, say, AKxxx xx KQxxx x, admittedly an improbable hand, 4S requires a 3-3 split while 5D is basically cold.

When the opps usually have a nine card fit, it is rare for them to go for a number at the 3-level. Meanwhile, it is often the case that 4th seat wants to compete but has no clear direction. In the bad old days, 4th seat could show this with a very slow pass, but those days are, fortunately, long in the past.

[pilowsky]

Hi Sheila,
I can only imagine the conversation that went on. Agh shame! Anyway, it is interesting that this question arises so soon after the discussion about bidding over a weak 2♥ or 2♠ opening and the rule of 17 that Mike and tramticket had very strong views about. I wonder if you would be kind enough to provide the full hand for everyone to see so that they can apply their judgement.
I am not one of the experts whose views you seek, but my 2 Rand's worth is as follows:
Opener preempts with 6-11 HCP. LHO bids 2♠. This may be weak with 6+♠ since a double might be more appropriate if LHO had points. Openers partner can either call 4♥ or pass depending on their hand. Vulnerability is also important. Over 3♥, RHO should either bid (3♠, 4♠, 3NT, something else or quietly pass. To me anyway a double must be for penalties since LHO has already bid their hand - such is the nature of pre-empts.
On the basis of what you have shown so far, it sounds like quite a discussion followed and it would certainly help me to see the full deal since I am not an expert.

[mikeh]

Sheila: the only sensible thing pilowsky wrote was that he is not an expert. It can be difficult for a relatively new player to learn whose posts to study, and use to improve, and whose are utter nonsense and will make your game worse. Look to see who gets ‘likes’ for their posts, and who is giving the likes. The better players don’t always agree with each other, but they will usually explain why they differ. You won’t find any good players up voting any of pilowky’s posts, nor of his former persona olpossum.

The notion that 2S shows a weak hand is ludicrous. 2S will usually show approximately opening values with, preferably, 6 spades. However, one often finds that one has to make the call on only 5.

As for the double, I doubt that one expert in ten would treat it as penalty. At the risk of being accused as arguing from authority, I have played against a lot of the best players in the world (and have the poor results to prove it), and have followed expert bidding practices for decades. Note that stating that virtually all experts would play this as takeout isn’t me asserting that takeout is the best use. It is me asserting that the combined wisdom of scores of players far better than me think it’s the best use. I respectfully agree.

[pilowsky]

"Sheila: the only sensible thing pilowsky wrote was that he is not an expert. It can be difficult for a relatively new player to learn whose posts to study, and use to improve, and whose are utter nonsense and will make your game worse. Look to see who gets 'likes' for their posts, and who is giving the likes. The better players don't always agree with each other, but they will usually explain why they differ. You won't find any good players up voting any of pilowky's posts, nor of his former persona olpossum."
lol, I don't know who 'possum' is Sheila but one only has to read that sentence to get a feel for Mike's personality. (and his grammar and spelling). It is interesting that he seems to regard posts as some sort of popularity contest - I think I'll start a competition for him.
In any event, I hope that you get some helpful responses and agreement. As opposed to Mike's opinion of me.
It's up to you, but I would caution you against people that routinely use terms such as 'utter nonsense' and 'will make your game worse': this sort of argument may play well during some sort of moot court, but it is of little use in trying to understand a logic puzzle such as Bridge.

By the way, Mike likes to be friendly to everyone: Here is what he said back in 2011 (it is still on his member site) apparently before he stopped posting for a while: "Gone, gone, gone. I got tired of all the personal attacks here...including the ones I made. Life is too short to waste time and energy on mickey mouse arguments. I'm not criticizing anyone but me, but since I can't stop rising to the (perceived) bait, I'm outa here. I may lurk but it will be a long time, if ever, before I post."

[JonnyQuest]

 pilowsky, on 2020-January-28, 23:35, said:

I am not one of the experts whose views you seek, but my 2 Rand's worth is as follows:
Opener preempts with 6-11 HCP. RHO bids 2♠. This may be weak with 6+♠ since a double might be more appropriate if LHO had points. Openers partner can either call 4♥ or pass depending on their hand. Vulnerability is also important. Over 3♥, RHO should either bid (3♠, 4♠, 3NT, something else or quietly pass. To me anyway a double must be for penalties since LHO has already bid their hand - such is the nature of pre-empts.

Pilowsky, may I get a discount? I'm not sure it's worth 2 Rands.

The auction provided was 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♥ - Double, with no indication of who made what bid. But you have assigned the following seat assignments, so let's run with that:

1.) "Opener preempts with 6-11 HCP. RHO bids 2♠."
......If RHO is the overcaller, this makes opener your partner.

2.) "This may be weak with 6+♠ since a double might be more appropriate if LHO had points."
......No. 2♠ will absolutely NOT be weak here. You do not preempt a preempt. (Preempts 101.)

3.) "Openers partner can either call 4♥ or pass depending on their hand."
......Opener's partner is you since you assigned the initial preempt to your partner. You've listed a binary choice. Why? In the OP auction, opener's partner raised the level of the preempt to the 3-level. That is another obvious choice of actions. There are others as well.

4.) "Over 3♥, RHO should either bid (3♠, 4♠, 3NT, something else or quietly pass."
......RHO already overcalled 2♠ and you, responder, raised partner's preempt to 3♥. For RHO to bid over 3♥, there would not be a double. Did you mean 3♥ Doubled? I'll assume so, though it is at best confusing.

5.) "A double must be for penalties since LHO has already bid their hand - such is the nature of pre-empts."
......Huh? If RHO was overcaller, that makes your partner opener. But here you have LHO somehow making the opening preempt? Maybe they moved during the auction? Where I play, once the auction begins, you are supposed to remain at that position. It's a good rule.

If you first get the directions right, and are clear on who made what bid and in which seat they made it (assuming they do not switch seats mid-auction), the probability of understanding the meaning of double goes way up.