[freeeooo]

Last week, we had a combination of bidding that went;
1♥ - Pass - 2 ♦- Pass
3♣ - Pass - 5♣- Pass Pass Pass

I had 14 points, 5 hearts, 4 clubs, 2 spades and 2 diamonds.

I was taught that for openers re-bid
13-18 points bid new suit
19+ points jump shift
(ignoring reverses etc)

My only rebid (as I saw it) was clubs.

I was surprised when my partner laid down dummy with 4 clubs and 11 points.

Afterwards my partner said
"a new minor at the 3 level is forcing to game" i.e. it is a big hand.

I have searched for such a rule but cannot find one.

Is a new minor at the 3 level in the above sequence a big hand?

Thanks
Freo

[Cyberyeti]

In many systems yes it is. What are you playing ?

I won't speak much about 2/1, there you're already forcing to game so it need not show the earth.

In Acol/standard etc where the 2/1 is say 10+ then yes it's FG or you just can't manage the auctions.

Where it isn't always that huge is where the auction has gone say 1♦-(P)-1♠-(2♥)-3♣

[apollo1201]

In 2/1, which I am not familiar with, a bid at the 3 level shows extras, or not, depending on the school. In that case m, rebidding 2M is a waiting or promises 6+ cards. But as your partner tabled 11HCPs, his 2D was not GF.

When such bid is not GF, and promises a rebid (so 11+ roughly), and even more where it doesn’t promise one (e.g. English ACOL iirc when I played there, 9 HCPs and a decent suit could be ok), going to the 3 level definitely has to promise extras (16+) and therefore becomes GF.

The reason for that is you are elevating the level quite high, not sure yet to have a fit, while potentially facing a rather moderately strong hand opposite.

A 5422 of 14HCPs is definitely not as strong enough, even with a nice hand like:

xx
AQT9x
Qx
KQJx

Not sure what Acol rebid is as I’ve left the UK too long ago, but in French or US std you’d have to rebid your H and await what partner will say (probably 2NT with their hand, on which you will raise to 3NT and pray).

[helene_t]

Hi Freeeooo, welcome to the forum!

Even opposite an Acol 2♦ bid (which could be a decent 9-count), 3♣ doesn't show a "big" hand. 15 points should be enough. P is gameforcing opposite a balanced 15 so opposite an unbalanced 15 they usually also want to be in game. If this is not precise enough you may need to change system.

In SAYC, the 3♣ rebid shows 16+ points according to the SAYS Booklet (thanks to FelicityR for pointing this out) but note that in that style, your opening already showed 13+, making your 14 points a minimum. So presumably you are supposed to rebid 2♥ and then pass a subsequent 2NT or 3♦ bid by partner, but if you also open this shape with 11 points, the system becomes unplayable. You would need to discuss this with partner. My personal view is that the 2♦ bid ought to show, in principle, 11+ points if (semi)-balanced, and you need to decide whether your 14 points is enough to force to game opposite responder's minimum of 11-12 points. Then you rebid 3♣ to GF and 2♥ not to GF, while 2NT is an option if you are not sure (2NT is forcing and does deny a dead minimum but you can still pass a subsequent 3♦ bid by responder - you probably wouldn't pass with 14 points, though).

In 2/1 it is a matter of agreement. Again, I think 15+ would be about mainstream.

So 14 points may be about a point shy. If your points are all working, say Ax-KQxxx-xx-AJxx I would say that 3♣ is normal in any system.

Anyway, whether partner expects 14 or 16 points from you doesn't matter, you are in a game force and the question is just which game. With only four clubs, partner should probably have bid something else to keep the door open for 3NT.

With something like xx-xx-AKxxx-Axxx, partner can bid either 3♦, 3♥ or 3♠ depending on agreement.
With something like xxx-x-AKxxx-Axxx, either 3♦ or 3♠, although supporting clubs is also reasonable.

So you need to discuss with partner how responder bids a hand with club support without bypassing 3nt.

[FelicityR]

Playing SAYC - as per your profile - after a 2 level response by your partner (2♦ shows 9+ good points/soft 10 count), a rebid of 3♣ shows 16+ points, and is forcing to game.

Opener with 11-15 is expected to rebid at the lowest level, either rebidding their original suit or bidding 2NT, and is not supposed to introduce a new suit at the three level.

Maybe with good intermediate cards and good suits you can lower this requirement to a good 15 count. A 5431 hand with two suits and three card support for partner's suit would be preferable to a 5422.

I have checked a few sources and they effectively all say similar. The hand strength is described as medium to intermediate (16-18 HCPs), as opposed to minimum, but it could be strong (19HCP+), too.

[pescetom]

 apollo1201, on 2020-January-19, 08:40, said:

In 2/1, which I am not familiar with, a bid at the 3 level shows extras, or not, depending on the school.

Is there really a 2/1 school where 3♣ here shows no extras at all?
I am of the school that 1♥ 2m 2♠ could be a minimum, but surely there is good reason for 1M 2X 3♣ or 1♠ 2♥ 3♦to show something more - without this information a responder in misfit or a minor fit would have no way to decide whether or not to bid beyond 3NT.

[nige1]

 freeeooo, on 2020-January-19, 07:33, said:

..I had 14 points, 5 hearts, 4 clubs, 2 spades and 2 diamonds. I was taught that for openers re-bid13-18 points bid new suit19+ points jump shift(ignoring reverses etc)My only rebid (as I saw it) was clubs.I was surprised when my partner laid down dummy with 4 clubs and 11 points. Afterwards my partner said"a new minor at the 3 level is forcing to game" i.e. it is a big hand.I have searched for such a rule but cannot find one.Is a new minor at the 3 level in the above sequence a big hand?

I occasionally play 2/1 with an expert partner who treats the 3♣ rebid as showing 5 ♣s or reversing values.
With 5 ♥s, 4 ♣s and a minimum, we have to rebid 2♥s.

---

[helene_t]

 pescetom, on 2020-January-19, 15:50, said:

Is there really a 2/1 school where 3♣ here shows no extras at all?

Isn't that the Hardy style? Certainly a 2♠ rebid would not show extras in the Hardy style, but maybe 3♣ does?

Anyway, it is rare but not unheard of. Probably fair to say that most of those pairs who have agreed to play it that way are not very advanced.

[Vampyr]

 helene_t, on 2020-January-19, 14:20, said:

Hi Freeeooo, welcome to the forum!

Even opposite an Acol 2♦ bid (which could be a decent 9-count), 3♣ doesn't show a "big" hand. 15 points should be enough. P is gameforcing opposite a balanced 15 so opposite an unbalanced 15 they usually also want to be in game. If this is not precise enough you may need to change system.

15 points seems a little low to me. A high reverse should show normal reversing values, IMO. 15 opp 9 is a point shy to definitely want to be in game. But as you say it will normally be a “decent” 9-count, and of course a very good 15 can upgrade.

I am sure we have all at least once bid 2/1 on an 8-count, to show partner where we live!

[helene_t]

 Vampyr, on 2020-January-19, 17:38, said:

15 points seems a little low to me. A high reverse should show normal reversing values, IMO. 15 opp 9 is a point shy to definitely want to be in game. But as you say it will normally be a “decent” 9-count, and of course a very good 15 can upgrade.

I am sure we have all at least once bid 2/1 on an 8-count, to show partner where we live!

I would say that a reverse opposite a 2/1 can be slightly lighter than opposite a 1/1. Of course it depends how much the 2/1 promises. In Lancaster where I earned most of my Acol experience, the club standard seemed to be 10 points or a good 9 for a 2/1, and maybe that's somewhat conservative. It did strike me that they missed most 16+9 games as opener would pass the 1NT response if they had a balanced hand.

If you require 16 for a 2/1 reverse, it means that your 2♥ rebid is 11-15. Most Acol players I know frequently open unspectacular 10-counts so let's make it 10-15. Partner can still invite by bidding 2NT or 3♥. But with both minors, or with a 1-suiter, they have to decide whether they want to be in game, don't they?

But ok, whether the minimum is 15 or 16 is maybe a bit too much nitpicking. And of course, you are in the same situation after a 1/1 and a 2♥ rebid which also shows (10)11-15. The small difference is that when opener has promised a 6-card, responder can pass with any non-invitational hand, so that responder rebidding their suit is now encouraging, but I am not sure if most Acol players actually play this way.

I would expect many Acol bidders to be in a thin game with 15 opposite a misfitting 9. Alternatively, if they rebid 2♥ with 15 points, they may find themselves in a 2♥ contract with 15+11 points. 2/1 bidders are probably worse off in this respect as they open on most unbalanced 11 counts and responder forces to game on random 12 counts.

[Vampyr]

 helene_t, on 2020-January-19, 18:13, said:

I would expect many Acol bidders to be in a thin game with 15 opposite a misfitting 9. Alternatively, if they rebid 2♥ with 15 points, they may find themselves in a 2♥ contract with 15+11 points. 2/1 bidders are probably worse off in this respect as they open on most unbalanced 11 counts and responder forces to game on random 12 counts.

Yes, it is odd. I always thought that 2/1GF bidders had to have sound openers, otherwise you are putting weak NT and other opening bids, basically every hand, into the 1NT response.

[igt3]

These are tricky hands I think. I would prefere 3♣ to show 5-5 or a stronger hand. I think I would bid 2NT and if partner is affraid of spades I would take 3♠ as showing just that. If partner has a good hand with 4♣ he/she can bid 3♣.

[dsLawsd]

I would say that Walsh style 2/1 that 3♣ shows 5-4+ with a good 15 count. With less 2NT would show 5-4-2-2 or 5-3-3-2.
It could be stronger.

Bridge World Standard would likely consider that sequence to show at least 16 with good suits or 5 clubs.

Getting to the 3 level when 2♦ is not an absolute game force requires extras forcing to at least 4 of a minor when a fit is not found and 3NT not in the picture.

[freeeooo]

 FelicityR, on 2020-January-19, 15:08, said:

Playing SAYC - as per your profile - after a 2 level response by your partner (2♦ shows 9+ good points/soft 10 count), a rebid of 3♣ shows 16+ points, and is forcing to game.

Opener with 11-15 is expected to rebid at the lowest level, either rebidding their original suit or bidding 2NT, and is not supposed to introduce a new suit at the three level.

Maybe with good intermediate cards and good suits you can lower this requirement to a good 15 count. A 5431 hand with two suits and three card support for partner's suit would be preferable to a 5422.

I have checked a few sources and they effectively all say similar. The hand strength is described as medium to intermediate (16-18 HCPs), as opposed to minimum, but it could be strong (19HCP+), too.

We are playing Standard - SAYC

Thanks Felicity R. - great answer and one that my partner will love too!
I had the 2524 in suits, so my only other option is 2NT, which makes sense and shows a minimum 11-15.
I would be interested if you found this 'rule' in some literature.

[nekthen]

Acol I believe the modern style is for 2/1 bids to be 10+ as this enables a 2N rebid to be 15-19 balanced and GF. A rebid of 3N is gambling in nature, openers hand being 12-14 and improved by partners response

SAYC 2N is 11-15 but I would prefer 2♥ unless my ♠ doubleton was really good, as ♠ is the obvious suit to lead on the bidding

[FelicityR]

 freeeooo, on 2020-January-20, 04:12, said:

We are playing Standard - SAYC

Thanks Felicity R. - great answer and one that my partner will love too!
I had the 2524 in suits, so my only other option is 2NT, which makes sense and shows a minimum 11-15.
I would be interested if you found this 'rule' in some literature.

My apologies. I should have given a link to the online sources I double-checked with. Here's another one I found quickly, though it looks a bit dated as it expects opener to have a minimum of 13HCPs (!) Though it clearly states the separate types of hand and action to take playing SAYC. Given it's from the ACBL site, it's pretty clear on how you treat the three types of hand rebidding as opener.

https://cdn.acbl.org...ry-Lesson-5.pdf

[Caitlynne]

In Standard American systems (e.g., SAYC, 2/1, KS), your 3C bid is known as a "high reverse" (i.e., a reverse at the 3 level as opposed to the lower 2 level) and definitely promises extra strength. After a 2/1 response (whether it be 2/1 game forcing or just an old fashioned SAYC style 2/1 simply promising a rebid), the high reverse is game forcing. Nevertheless, the concept of a high reverse is an area that is often off the radar of inexperienced and/or non-expert players. Still, it is important for opener to promise extra strength when rebidding at the 3 level simply because a rebid at the 3 level deprives responder of considerable bidding space that s/he may need to continue describing his/her hand before committing to 3NT or any other contract.
For this reason, there are two "standard" approaches to your rebid problem:
(1) Rebid your major at the 2 level with all minimum hands. When playing this style - the original standard style, by the way - the rebid of your major does not promise extra length, just the possibility of being minimum. Mike Lawrence is often associated as an advocate of this style and sometimes this rebid style is called the Lawrence Method.
(2) Rebid 2N to show a minimum. This is the style advocated and popularized by Marty Bergen. In this style, rebidding 2M does show extra length. The problem with this style is that 2NT also consumes a lot of bidding space and, perhaps even more seriously, may wrong-side a NT contract since it neither requires nor promises stoppers in the unbid suits.
There are non-standard solutions as well. One of these is known as the Shuler Shift. Here 2N is used to show extra length in opener's suit while the meaning of the 2M rebid is consistent with the Lawrence Method - i.e., either a balanced hand or a two suiter without high reverse values where opener's second suit is lower ranking than responder's (and would have required a rebid at the 3 level to have shown it). The basic justification for using 2NT in this way is that the 2N rebid is less likely to compromise a NT contract when it shows extra length in the major suit since responder is likely to have the unbid suits adequately covered when avoiding opener's major.
There are other solutions as well, but they get complicated and I am insufficiently familiar with them to explain them here.

[mycroft]

 pescetom, on 2020-January-19, 15:50, said:

Is there really a 2/1 school where 3♣ here shows no extras at all?

Yes - basically this is not only standard but "there can't be another way" in ACBL District 18 (at least the Canadian side of it). Shape rules, and extras are something you work out "later". As one who learned 2/1 in Toronto, it still feels uncomfortable to play that way, and the once a month I play with my other partner (who also learned 2/1 in Toronto) is a breath of fresh air, as I know what I'm facing. Of course, that style has its own issues (1♥-2♦; 2♥ is massively overloaded, for instance).

Quote

I am of the school that 1♥ 2m 2♠ could be a minimum, but surely there is good reason for 1M 2X 3♣ or 1♠ 2♥ 3♦to show something more - without this information a responder in misfit or a minor fit would have no way to decide whether or not to bid beyond 3NT.

I don't disagree. I also complain frequently that "we're at the 4 level, with no idea if either player has extras, contemplating (or having made) a slam try. Fun."

 Vampyr, on 2020-January-19, 20:50, said:

Yes, it is odd. I always thought that 2/1GF bidders had to have sound openers, otherwise you are putting weak NT and other opening bids, basically every hand, into the 1NT response.

You haven't played against North American 2/1 for 20 years, obviously. I open "all 11s that aren't 10s", and that's pretty common. We GF on 12s that aren't obvious misfits. Do we get to some bad games? Sure - so do the Precision pairs for whom "any 16 + any 8 is game". Do some of those bad games make? Also yes.

OP: The way I played your auction back in the "2/1 not GF" days was "2♦ wasn't GF, but 3♣ is." But it didn't necessarily show extras past GF. How big that is depends on the minimum for your 2/1, of course.

[smerriman]

 mycroft, on 2020-January-21, 09:51, said:

Yes - basically this is not only standard but "there can't be another way" in ACBL District 18 (at least the Canadian side of it). Shape rules, and extras are something you work out "later".

I know some people play that way, but I've never understood how it's possible; there simply appears to be no such thing as "later". If responder has, say, a 16 count with spades stopped, 3NT is the likely the last playable spot if opener is a minimum. But responder would also bid 3NT with a minimum, so opener can't bid on with some extras himself. You therefore appear to miss laydown slams when you both have extras.

[bluenikki]

Regardless of the original question, it is unplayable for the jump from 3 to 5 of a minor to be "fast arrival." Has it ever worked out in any of your experiences?

Best use of the double jump was suggested by Peter Weichsel: Double jump raise to 5 of a minor means the same thing that double jump raise to 5 of a major would mean in your partnership.