BBO Discussion Forums: Ignoring the stop card - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Ignoring the stop card

#21 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,670
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-11, 08:42

 Vampyr, on 2020-January-10, 14:56, said:

No, and I am envious of jurisdictions that require use of the Stop card after any 3-level+ bid in a contested auction.


Me too.
I would also be happy if use of Stop card was required after opening lead (yes Declarer may require more than 10s, but that seems no real problem).
0

#22 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,112
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2020-January-11, 08:55

 pescetom, on 2020-January-11, 08:42, said:

Me too.
I would also be happy if use of Stop card was required after opening lead (yes Declarer may require more than 10s, but that seems no real problem).

A problem with that would be: Which player should administer the STOP card?

We have no such problem in Norway:
RHO is entitled to (at least) 10 seconds for considerations after Declarer has played from Dummy to trick 1. (He may play earlier.)
Declarer may play from his own hand whenever he wants to.
0

#23 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,112
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2020-January-11, 08:55

 pescetom, on 2020-January-11, 08:42, said:

Me too.
I would also be happy if use of Stop card was required after opening lead (yes Declarer may require more than 10s, but that seems no real problem).

A problem with that would be: Which player should administer the STOP card?

We have no such problem in Norway:
RHO is entitled to (at least) 10 seconds for considerations after Declarer has played from Dummy to trick 1. (He may play earlier.)
Declarer may play from his own hand whenever he wants to.
0

#24 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,670
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-11, 11:57

 pran, on 2020-January-11, 08:55, said:

A problem with that would be: Which player should administer the STOP card?

The defender on lead would seem to be the obvious choice, both because coherent with STOP card procedure and because he is under less pressure.

 pran, on 2020-January-11, 08:55, said:

We have no such problem in Norway:
RHO is entitled to (at least) 10 seconds for considerations after Declarer has played from Dummy to trick 1. (He may play earlier.)
Declarer may play from his own hand whenever he wants to.

Sure, that is an even more appropriate regulation, I was just concerned that an RA might fail to get that right in practice (ours decided not to state how many seconds, for instance, and not waiting is not an infraction) whereas merely adding the requirement of STOP is simple and then all the timing, disciplinary and 'what if X happens' issues are already defined in regulations and laws.
0

#25 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,742
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-January-11, 12:22

 pran, on 2020-January-10, 07:44, said:

The Norwegian regulation on STOP explicitly states that LHO (to the player who should use STOP) is entitled to a pause of 10 seconds where STOP is required, regardless of whether or not STOP was used or was withdrawn prematurely.


Is the player entitled to the pause, but doesn’t have to take it? I don’t think this is our regulation, but it should be. What is really annoying is when players call before the Stop card is removed. Sometimes if I see them reaching for the bidding box I block it with the Stop card; very occasionally I throw the card over my shoulder and say “I guess I won’t be needing this”.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#26 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,112
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2020-January-11, 15:00

 Vampyr, on 2020-January-11, 12:22, said:

Is the player entitled to the pause, but doesn’t have to take it?

yes.
It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.
0

#27 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,780
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2020-January-11, 18:25

 pran, on 2020-January-11, 15:00, said:

yes.
It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#28 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,742
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-January-12, 00:18

View Postpran, on 2020-January-11, 15:00, said:

yes.
It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.


That is really good and I wish we had that.

View Postblackshoe, on 2020-January-11, 18:25, said:

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.


I would definitely call when I felt like it. “Oh, was that bid a jump? I didn’t notice”. The trouble is I may well not notice it if it is an auction in which I have little interest. Placing the burden on the opponent is a bizarre concept. Eliminating Stop card and not even replacing it with an announcement, yet still expecting the opponent to take it upon herself to pause is one of the worst ideas the ACBL ever had. On a par with the Yellow Card tournaments and the way they wrecked the team of two pairs events were
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#29 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,112
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2020-January-12, 02:18

View Postpran, on 2020-January-10, 07:44, said:

The Norwegian regulation on STOP explicitly states that LHO (to the player who should use STOP) is entitled to a pause of 10 seconds where STOP is required, regardless of whether or not STOP was used or was withdrawn prematurely.

View Postpran, on 2020-January-11, 15:00, said:

yes.
It is illegal to call while the STOP card is exposed or when "STOP" has been said until "Continue" (or word to that effect) is subsequently said..

LHO is always entitled to a 10 seconds pause for considerations when STOP is compulsory, but he is free to call at any time if STOP was not used.



View Postblackshoe, on 2020-January-11, 18:25, said:

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.

Well, I didn't bother to repeat "The Norwegian regulation" within each of my entries in this particular thread.
0

#30 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,670
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-12, 03:13

View PostVampyr, on 2020-January-12, 00:18, said:

On a par with the Yellow Card tournaments and the way they wrecked the team of two pairs events were

How and why did they wreck the latter?
0

#31 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,995
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2020-January-12, 04:03

View Postblackshoe, on 2020-January-11, 18:25, said:

That depends on where he is. In NA, there is no stop card. A skip-bidders LHO is nonetheless required to pass ten seconds before making a call, though many don't.

Why not introduce a STOP flag or even better, a STOP whistle (maybe both, the whistle just to prevent people from ignoring the flag)? 😍
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#32 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,742
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-January-12, 16:24

View Postpescetom, on 2020-January-12, 03:13, said:

How and why did they wreck the latter?


This was an event that was new. I had never played in it, but was eager to. It was only available at the Nationals.

The idea was that you had two pairs sitting in the same direction in the same matchpoint pairs competition. The better matchpoint score counted for your team.

Shortly after introducing this event, the ACBL changed it to the worst score counted.

That is the how. The why is probably that people were taking wild flyers in the event. But in the changed format it was not an interesting event at all, so it disappeared. Perhaps it was never workable in the original incarnation for the reason above, but it was an intriguing idea. And that was unusual in the ACBL, because they employ far fewer forms of scoring than other RAs. For example they do not play multiple teams (except BAM) or Swiss pairs. Also they do not, as far as I know, use the Australian movement, which is a lot quicker and more orderly for Swiss teams.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#33 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,742
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-January-12, 16:27

View Postbarmar, on 2020-January-10, 10:18, said:

But the STOP period is intended to be for LHO's call. If they call prematurely, I can understand thinking that keeping the STOP card on the table has become pointless.


Quite. But of course in fact it takes pressure off your partner.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#34 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,174
  • Joined: 2008-September-10

Posted 2020-January-12, 17:18

View Postgwnn, on 2020-January-12, 04:03, said:

Why not introduce a STOP flag or even better, a STOP whistle (maybe both, the whistle just to prevent people from ignoring the flag)? 😍

Good idea. The use, or non use of the stop card allowed some pairs to have 2 sets of agreements depending on whether they used the stop card or not. A stop whistle used or not used with or without the stop card would allow 4 sets of agreements. I'm all for more scientific bidding :)
0

#35 User is online   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,742
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2020-January-12, 21:27

View Postjohnu, on 2020-January-12, 17:18, said:

Good idea. The use, or non use of the stop card allowed some pairs to have 2 sets of agreements depending on whether they used the stop card or not. A stop whistle used or not used with or without the stop card would allow 4 sets of agreements. I'm all for more scientific bidding :)


Is the Stop card optional where you play? Here it is not.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#36 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 19,099
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-January-13, 00:11

View PostVampyr, on 2020-January-12, 00:18, said:

I would definitely call when I felt like it. “Oh, was that bid a jump? I didn’t notice”. The trouble is I may well not notice it if it is an auction in which I have little interest.

Isn't that a violation of the law that says you're supposed to pay attention?

Why isn't the STOP card viewed as a redundant crutch? Why should we have to remind the opponent that a bid is a jump, isn't it obvious?

#37 User is online   sanst 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 586
  • Joined: 2014-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Deventer, The Netherlands

Posted 2020-January-13, 01:35

View Postjohnu, on 2020-January-12, 17:18, said:

Good idea. The use, or non use of the stop card allowed some pairs to have 2 sets of agreements depending on whether they used the stop card or not. A stop whistle used or not used with or without the stop card would allow 4 sets of agreements. I'm all for more scientific bidding :)

That’s fine. And, if you bid game without jump, keep the cards in your hand with a weakish hand and put these on the table to indicate a possible slam. :P
Joost
0

#38 User is online   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,670
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2020-January-13, 03:03

View Postsanst, on 2020-January-13, 01:35, said:

That’s fine. And, if you bid game without jump, keep the cards in your hand with a weakish hand and put these on the table to indicate a possible slam. :P

That's unscientific at best. Just close your hand, place it on the table and cover it with one finger per keycard while you stare into space :)
0

#39 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,112
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2020-January-13, 04:04

View Postbarmar, on 2020-January-13, 00:11, said:

Why isn't the STOP card viewed as a redundant crutch? Why should we have to remind the opponent that a bid is a jump, isn't it obvious?

The purpose of the STOP procedure is not to remind LHO that the bid is a jump.

It is to protect LHO against accusations of varying tempo (i.e. delaying his call) because of a need for time to decide what call to make.

This is also the reason why it is the jump bidder and not his LHO who should be responsible for administering the STOP period.
(Unlike as I understand the regulation is in ACBL?)
1

#40 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 19,099
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2020-January-13, 09:50

View Postpran, on 2020-January-13, 04:04, said:

The purpose of the STOP procedure is not to remind LHO that the bid is a jump.

It is to protect LHO against accusations of varying tempo (i.e. delaying his call) because of a need for time to decide what call to make.

This is also the reason why it is the jump bidder and not his LHO who should be responsible for administering the STOP period.
(Unlike as I understand the regulation is in ACBL?)

Right. In ACBL, the jump bidder didn't control the timing. RHO was always supposed to pause 10 seconds, whether the STOP card was used or not. So the card only served as a reminder, not a timing mechanism.

Maybe if we'd been using it the way the rest of the world does, we wouldn't have needed to get rid of it.

OTOH, I also can't recall ever seeing someone call the TD regarding a fast pass over a jump bid. I also can't recall ever seeing a writeup of something like this in an appeal report (but the only appeal cases I ever read are the ones that get published in NABC daily bulletins, I've never purchased an appeals casebook).

Share this topic:


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users