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How do you bid these hands in standard 2/1?

#1 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-December-18, 18:20



South dealer, IMPs.

Various questions on this hand and similar ones.

Do you want to be in 3NT on these hands?

Does North have a game forcing response to 1?

If the answer to the latter is no, increase North's strength slightly so the answer is yes. How do you get to 3N when that's right, and 5/6D when that's right for various strengths of South with this shape?
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#2 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-December-19, 01:41

There's no way I would force as North in a 2/1 auction with the North hand, Forcing 1NT response as the best/worst case scenario.

Misfits are misfits. As for locating a 4-4 fit with better honour cards that's likely to be tough, too.

Some hands you accept that whatever tools you have in your bidding gadgetry, it is virtually impossible to bid to the correct contract. This hand is most likely one of them.
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#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-December-19, 04:50

Looking at both hands I think it would be difficult to avoid losing 5 tricks, so the answer to your first question is "no".

Looking at N in isolation, it's 12 hcp so before I see partner's opening, it is doubtful to be GF, and when I do see 1 I downgrade it further so definitely not. Conversely, if he opened 1 it is a definite yes, and it certainly is a 4+ card support GF of 2NT or whatever your bid is. Over 1 I make a forcing 1NT and in reply to a continuation of 2 I am happy to bid 3.

Increasing N's strength to GF by adding say the Q then the bidding is likely to go 1 2, 2 3, 3 3NT, getting to your 3NT game which might not be right, but plausible. If S was stronger it depends on how you play the 2 rebid, but he might bid 4 or 4 over 3NT asking for game preference and you would bid 5. If his first rebid was 3 rather than 2 you may play that as 15/16+ and if you were correspondingly stronger too then you could jump to 4 to agree diamonds and ace ask to be in the slam, or maybe you do that with 4.

Key points are how you play opener's rebid after a 2/1 and whether certain bids show strength or not. I do not know what is "standard" here, but I find it easy to play that rebidding the major does not show extra length, but rebidding higher than that does show extra hcp strength. S would then with a 15/16+ 6241 shape might be intending to bid 1 2 3 3 3 if you repeated hearts rather than agreed diamonds.
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#4 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-December-19, 07:53

 fromageGB, on 2019-December-19, 04:50, said:

Over 1 I make a forcing 1NT and in reply to a continuation of 2 I am happy to bid 3.


I would never bid 2 here. Would always always rebid the strong six card suit. I believe the original poster, smerriman, specifically made the North and South hands as they are - they might be from a tourney - because it's awkward introducing the suit by either North or South. The other thing to note is that North's hand doesn't particularly want to game force with 2 with such a poor suit if he/she were a bit stronger.

The misfit makes these hands quite difficult to bid. If I am wrong about rebidding the strong six card suit in preference to the jack high four card suit after a forcing 1NT response, I hope the other commentators will kindly advise me.

Rebidding strong six card major suits always take preference over introducing poor four card minor suits in my book.
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#5 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-December-19, 12:02

I too would rebid the spades over a 1NT response, 2 would suggest more than this.
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-December-19, 21:34

I think i will be in game on these hands
If i don't i am going to miss games where hands fit a little better
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#7 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-December-20, 04:31

 FelicityR, on 2019-December-19, 07:53, said:

Rebidding strong six card major suits always take preference over introducing poor four card minor suits in my book.

I am surprised mainly because with a forcing NT the default contract is often 2M. Assuming opener rebids diamonds on a 4 card suit and perhaps sometimes on a 3 card suit with nothing better to say, if partner with no diamond fit is typically going to rebid 2 on a doubleton, why do you need to rebid spades immediately? If he rebids 2 then without heart support you can now bid 2 to show 6. Accepting the vagueness of an opener minor rebid when playing forcing NT, responder is not going to raise or pass the minor unless he has genuine reason to do so. Therefore in my view there is no need to hide a 4 card minor.

Of course this is complicated if you play 2 as artificial, where 2 may therefore be forced to distortion, but the OP posited "standard" and hence no Gazzilli etc. If your normal method in principle is to rebid 2 on a 5332 shape I see no objection to it being a 4 card suit.
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#8 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-December-20, 10:28

 fromageGB, on 2019-December-20, 04:31, said:

I am surprised mainly because with a forcing NT the default contract is often 2M. Assuming opener rebids diamonds on a 4 card suit and perhaps sometimes on a 3 card suit with nothing better to say, if partner with no diamond fit is typically going to rebid 2 on a doubleton, why do you need to rebid spades immediately? If he rebids 2 then without heart support you can now bid 2 to show 6. Accepting the vagueness of an opener minor rebid when playing forcing NT, responder is not going to raise or pass the minor unless he has genuine reason to do so. Therefore in my view there is no need to hide a 4 card minor.

Of course this is complicated if you play 2 as artificial, where 2 may therefore be forced to distortion, but the OP posited "standard" and hence no Gazzilli etc. If your normal method in principle is to rebid 2 on a 5332 shape I see no objection to it being a 4 card suit.


I would have no compunction about rebidding diamonds over 1NT with a stronger hand, I just don't think this one is quite worth it despite the aces and useful tens. We play 1NT as semi-forcing, so 2 suggests decent 6-card spades.

[just to clarify my own post, I realise you were responding to another similar]
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#9 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-December-21, 07:28

 pescetom, on 2019-December-20, 10:28, said:

We play 1NT as semi-forcing...

And that's a different card game, as they say.

Playing a forcing NT you are obliged to bid, and you can afford to scratch around for the best contract. Playing a non-forcing NT you can easily pass (depending on the hand), so if you did bid 2 it would be suggestive of a higher contract or a better contract than 1NT, and therefore a better suit. My forcing NT can be up to a balanced 15 count (ie no sensible 5 card suit 13+ for a 2/1, and no 16+ for one of the multi-2 options) and therefore there is no implied responder weakness and therefore no implication that opener bidding a second suit shows strength or solidity.

It makes a huge difference, I feel.
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#10 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-December-21, 08:19

 fromageGB, on 2019-December-21, 07:28, said:

It makes a huge difference, I feel.

Well, it does when it does.

We play semi-forcing to mean that opener can only pass with a truly minimal 5M332, which is not that frequent although it happened twice unopposed in the MP tournament last night - the first was a top and the second was a bottom.
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