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Undiscussed What is partner's double?

Poll: Undiscussed (14 member(s) have cast votes)

How would you interpret partner's double?

  1. We have a specific agreement covering this auction. (2 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  2. We have a general agreement covering this auction. (7 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  3. We have no agreement, but the meaning is obvious. (2 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  4. We have no agreement, but the meaning will be obvious once I look at my hand. (2 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  5. The double is impossible, why would partner do this to me? (1 votes [7.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

The meaning of the double is?

  1. Take-out. (4 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  2. Values / Optional. (3 votes [21.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.43%

  3. Penalty (five-card heart suit). (5 votes [35.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.71%

  4. Penalty (five-card heart suit) but spade support (tolerance?) in case I am weak. (2 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  5. Partner wants to dissolve the partnership. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 03:06



Match Point Pairs. Club Night sitting in the North seat versus "moderate" opponents.

You have no partnership agreement but you are playing with your regular partner, who clearly trusts you to interpret this double correctly. You play that 1NT, (2), X and 1NT, (3), X are take-out. Also 1NT, (2), P, (P), Dbl would be takeout. But this sequence is rather different.

Does partner expect you to know what the bid means once you look at your hand?

Spoiler

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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 05:13

A 12-14 1N opposite a potential 0 count cannot have a realistic penalty double here with enough frequency to want to play one, so he's suggesting a suitable hand for spades.

Do you play transfer breaks here and how do you play them ? That may affect the difference between X and 3.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 05:39

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-December-10, 05:13, said:

A 12-14 1N opposite a potential 0 count cannot have a realistic penalty double here with enough frequency to want to play one, so he's suggesting a suitable hand for spades.

Do you play transfer breaks here and how do you play them ? That may affect the difference between X and 3.


Yes, we play transfer breaks with four-card support. We play (1) a new suit is a worthless doubleton; (2) 2NT maximum without a useless doubleton; (3) 3 minimum without a useless doubleton.
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#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 06:34

View PostTramticket, on 2019-December-10, 05:39, said:

Yes, we play transfer breaks with four-card support. We play (1) a new suit is a worthless doubleton; (2) 2NT maximum without a useless doubleton; (3) 3 minimum without a useless doubleton.


In that case I'm not sure if he has min or max, but he's suggesting a spade contract, whether you bid 3 or 4 is to taste here, game could be laydown (AKxx, xxx, Jxx, KJx) or no play (KJxx, Kxx, QJxx, Kx). If partner doesn't have K it's probably offside.

Btw did you ask them what X of 2 would have been as this may remove some possible hands from the 3 bid
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#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 06:41

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-December-10, 06:34, said:

Btw did you ask them what X of 2 would have been as this may remove some possible hands from the 3 bid


I could have asked, but I'm not convinced that I would get a sensible answer! The 3 bid could be anything.
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 07:39

Double is too potentially useful here to mean "Partner wants to dissolve the partnership", we could play that as 4 or whatever B-)

More seriously, your poll is missing the option "We have no agreement and the meaning is not obvious".
I would guess "Penalty but spade tolerance", but I would much rather he avoided the call and just discussed the possibility with me afterwards.
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#7 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 09:08

Penalty, penalty, penalty. Maximum no trump opener with 5 good s. No interest in partner's s, doubleton at the most. Let's try to get +200 here in MPs for a top as opposed to +140. Partner then decides what do to next.
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#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 09:19

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-December-10, 09:08, said:

Penalty, penalty, penalty. Maximum no trump opener with 5 good s. No interest in partner's s, doubleton at the most. Let's try to get +200 here in MPs for a top as opposed to +140. Partner then decides what do to next.


This hand barely exists unless opps are total idiots, you also have to be prepared to play 3 opposite 6 small and a yarborough, in which your heart values will not be an asset

Remember the 3 bidder is red v green stepping into an unlimited auction
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#9 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 11:55

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-December-10, 09:19, said:

This hand barely exists unless opps are total idiots, you also have to be prepared to play 3 opposite 6 small and a yarborough, in which your heart values will not be an asset

Remember the 3 bidder is red v green stepping into an unlimited auction


it's club bridge people make mental bids all the time. if it's a world championships or some such then yes a penalty double here is probably not the best use, but against the random LOL's at most clubs I think it makes perfect sense. and sure partner could have some 5134 yarb or some such and you're stuffed but he could also have many other hands!! ps sure a 5 card heart suit is likely but for instance

xx
AKJ9
Axxx
Qxx
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 12:10

View Posteagles123, on 2019-December-10, 11:55, said:

it's club bridge people make mental bids all the time. if it's a world championships or some such then yes a penalty double here is probably not the best use, but against the random LOL's at most clubs I think it makes perfect sense. and sure partner could have some 5134 yarb or some such and you're stuffed but he could also have many other hands!! ps sure a 5 card heart suit is likely but for instance

xx
AKJ9
Axxx
Qxx


You might have something like that once in 300 years (although not in this case as partner has Q). You're much more likely to hold a hand that wants to seriously invite 4 opposite a shapely 9 as against a strictly competitive 3. Also the OP seems to play most doubles in these sort of sequences as T/O in style
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#11 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-December-10, 18:14

TramTicket 'Match Point Pairs. Club Night sitting in the North seat versus "moderate" opponents. You have no partnership agreement but you are playing with your regular partner, who clearly trusts you to interpret this double correctly. You play that 1NT, (2), X and 1NT, (3), X are take-out. Also 1NT, (2), P, (P), Dbl would be takeout. But this sequence is rather different.'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
An experienced expert partnership can afford to learn specific agreements for each such context. Ordinary players should formulate generic agreements. For example, We agree that undiscussed doubles tend to be cards or T/O. Consistently, here, the meaning of South's calls might be:
-- double = Maximal, showing sound opener with 4 card support, suggesting game in s.
-- 3 = Minimum opener with 4 card support.
-- Pass = Other hands.
But the important thing is to have default agreements

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#12 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-December-11, 06:30

Thanks all. I like Cyberyeti's and Nige1's suggestion that double is Maximal spade support. I didn't think of this at the table and had assumed that partner would bid spades in a competitive auction if she had four-card support.

We do have a generic agreement - of sorts: "Low-level doubles are take-out or showing cards, unless those meanings are not relevant". A bit vague maybe, but we are generally on the same wavelength.

Here, once I got over the initial "why is she doing this to me" thought, I reasoned:
- It can't be take-out - I'm sure that she wouldn't be suggesting playing in 4m!
- It probably isn't "cards". A NT bid is a pretty narrow range anyway.
- Having eliminated these options, I reasoned that it must be penalty - but she would have spade tolerance.

As it turns out, we were fortunately on the same wavelength. The full deal was:



The over-call is of course unspeakable.
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-December-11, 07:45

View PostTramticket, on 2019-December-11, 06:30, said:

The over-call is of course unspeakable.


If it cost him 800 presumably he learnt that lesson.
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Posted 2019-December-11, 08:27

View Postpescetom, on 2019-December-11, 07:45, said:

If it cost him 800 presumably he learnt that lesson.


The defence wasn't perfect, but +500 was still 100% of the match points.
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#15 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-December-11, 08:32

View PostTramticket, on 2019-December-11, 08:27, said:

The defence wasn't perfect, but +500 was still 100% of the match points.


How many would the lucky 420 have got you if you'd bid 4 ?
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Posted 2019-December-11, 08:43

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-December-11, 08:32, said:

How many would the lucky 420 have got you if you'd bid 4 ?


One pair collected 80% for 4=. one pair collected 10% for 4-1 ...!
(Declared by north in each case)
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