[BudH]

My apologies initially for putting this post in this forum - but it does directly affect game directors for ACBL clubs, and probably others outside ACBL.

My local ACBL club, as will be true for other clubs, is using Windows 7 on an old computer and Microsoft ends Windows 7 support this January. So it's time to switch to Windows 10 and in my case, the old computer doesn't support Windows 10, so it's also time for a new club desktop computer! In my case, I recently purchased one and it looks like a great deal for $360 plus tax for an HP Slim Desktop with 8 GB RAM, 256 GB solid state drive, 1 TB regular hard drive, and i3 Intel processor.

-----------------------------------------

Old computer: Gateway DX4831-01e, purchased 26 April 2010 for $560, Windows 7 Home Premium, Intel i3 CPU @ 2.93GHz, 6 GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive

New computer: HP Slim Desktop S01-pF0135t, purchased 24 November 2019 for $360, Windows 10 Home Premium (November 2019 build 1909), Intel i3-9100, 3.6 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD & 1 TB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive

-----------------------------------------

MY MISSION - make this new computer look like and work nearly EXACTLY like the old computer so nearly computer illiterate game directors can run a game seamlessly with no issues.

(I likely will be using a program called "Classic Shell" to make it look like Windows 7.)

The primary reason for this post is the ACBLscore function keys and how they work when using Windows 10. On my personal (fairly new) Dell laptop computer running Windows 10, I have to use the "Fn" function key simultaneously with the desired function key. If you forget, weird things happen like screens getting brighter or dimmer with the F10 and F11 keys.

Does anyone know any way to get ACBLscore to recognize using Windows 10 the function keys without needing to press any other key simultaneously?

Also, if any of you have any advice on anything involved with switching your club's computer to Windows 10 (and making it look and feel and work like Windows 7), please let me and the rest of us know. I will keep everyone apprised of my mission in the next week. (I'm on vacation the next two weeks - which is why I'm doing this now for my local club before the Windows 7 support ends in January.)

Sorry for the length of this post!

Bud

[PeterAlan]

 BudH, on 2019-November-28, 08:34, said:

The primary reason for this post is the ACBLscore function keys and how they work when using Windows 10. On my personal (fairly new) Dell laptop computer running Windows 10, I have to use the "Fn" function key simultaneously with the desired function key. If you forget, weird things happen like screens getting brighter or dimmer with the F10 and F11 keys.

Does anyone know any way to get ACBLscore to recognize using Windows 10 the function keys without needing to press any other key simultaneously?

On my laptop, the Fn key is a toggle between the two modes (1) the normal F1 - F12 actions, and (2) the 'superscript' actions, like screen brightness, speaker volume etc, and the setting persists until toggled again. It has a LED indicator that's on (mode (1)) or off ((2)).

Your setup seems to be defaulting to the latter mode.

If toggling the Fn key on the keyboard doesn't persistently change the mode, and from your description it sounds like it doesn't, then look in the BIOS for an Action Keys setting and change that.

[barmar]

https://www.howtogee...r-special-keys/

[pescetom]

Did you try Windows 10 on the Gateway PC?
The drivers are here
and there are articles about free upgrading like this one here.




[this thread probably should not be in Laws and Rulings]

[blackshoe]

Not sure where on BBO this should be. The only place even remotely possible, IMO, is "Offline Bridge", but that doesn't really fit either.

I don't mind if it stays here.

[mycroft]

It's different for different computers - check the internet for something. "media keys" may help.

Many have a toggle in the BIOS, so boot into BIOS settings and see if something is there. BE CAREFUL in BIOS - you can easily make the computer not boot into anything but BIOS.

Some have a software toggle in the keyboard settings, or a Fn+key combination that toggles.

It's REALLY ANNOYING to those of us that grew up in The Olde Days when function keys (and keyboard shortcuts generally) were useful, and still know how to turn a dial on the speakers to bring up or down the volume.

Note: I found on my new work laptop that there is also a BIOS setting to switch the Fn and Ctrl keys. Very helpful when you are a unixhead, and when your personal laptop has the keys in the right opposite orientation.

Now if I can just convince everyone what the right way to scroll down on a touchpad is...

[sanst]

I would advise you not to make those changes. In my experience, both as a professional systems manager and managing our club’s computers for over ten years, the users get used pretty quick to these difference between the laptops. The same goes for differences in the user interface and functionality of software. If you try to keep things (almost) exactly as they were, you’ll find that somewhere in the future that you’re in a dead end street and will be forced to major changes. Let’s face it: a change of brightness if you forget to push the Fn key is not really a big thing. The worst that might happen is that you change the display to an external screen, resulting in a black display. That can be quite unnerving for the noninitiated, but can easily be corrected and you can instruct the victims how to handle this.
What if you find a solution but that’s overriden by a Windows update - and these are frequent? That’s probably not a problem if you’re available, but that might not be the case for whatever reason, anything from hiking in Alaska to a health disaster. In my experience it’s wise to change as less as possible and stick to the default settings unless you’re really forced to change these. I don’t know whether you document the system, but anything you change means more work to keep that document updated.

[BudH]

 pescetom, on 2019-November-28, 10:28, said:

Did you try Windows 10 on the Gateway PC?
The drivers are here
and there are articles about free upgrading like this one here.

I seem to remember two years ago when I did a clean install on the 2010 Gateway that I tried Windows 10 and it said it was incompatible. I think it might be the integrated graphics that caused Windows 10 to not be useable. The processor and memory look like they meet requirements.

[BudH]

 sanst, on 2019-November-29, 04:07, said:

I would advise you not to make those changes. In my experience, both as a professional systems manager and managing our club’s computers for over ten years, the users get used pretty quick to these difference between the laptops. The same goes for differences in the user interface and functionality of software. If you try to keep things (almost) exactly as they were, you’ll find that somewhere in the future that you’re in a dead end street and will be forced to major changes. Let’s face it: a change of brightness if you forget to push the Fn key is not really a big thing. The worst that might happen is that you change the display to an external screen, resulting in a black display. That can be quite unnerving for the noninitiated, but can easily be corrected and you can instruct the victims how to handle this.
What if you find a solution but that’s overriden by a Windows update - and these are frequent? That’s probably not a problem if you’re available, but that might not be the case for whatever reason, anything from hiking in Alaska to a health disaster. In my experience it’s wise to change as less as possible and stick to the default settings unless you’re really forced to change these. I don’t know whether you document the system, but anything you change means more work to keep that document updated.

I agree with keeping as many default options as you can. For the function keys, I’ll bet their default is “normal” for the new HP desktop. I probably made an accidental change on my personal Dell laptop.

One necessary change I can’t avoid is making it look close to Windows 7. My personal experience is that I gave the default appearance of Windows 10 a try for a full month and my dislike for the appearance never disappeared, so I used Classic Shell to make it look like Windows 7 again.

The other game directors at this club would not be able to handle the default Windows 10 interface. My guess is that would be common for many clubs and their game directors.

[BudH]

 blackshoe, on 2019-November-28, 13:25, said:

Not sure where on BBO this should be. The only place even remotely possible, IMO, is "Offline Bridge", but that doesn't really fit either.

I don't mind if it stays here.

Thanks, Ed. I didn’t really know where to put the post, either! But we often have mentioned the workings of Bridgemates and assocuated software and those aren’t laws or rulings topics.

Perhaps a forum on everything OTHER than laws and rulings (computer use and set up, game movements, differences between club directing and tournament directing, how to quickly seed and balance the field, Bridgemates, Bridgepads, Dealer4, Duplimate, ACBLscore and other scoring software, displaying final results on the web including ACBL forcing Live for Clubs on ACBL clubs, etc.) would be appropriate?

[pescetom]

 BudH, on 2019-November-29, 06:15, said:

I seem to remember two years ago when I did a clean install on the 2010 Gateway that I tried Windows 10 and it said it was incompatible. I think it might be the integrated graphics that caused Windows 10 to not be useable. The processor and memory look like they meet requirements.

Sounds odd. The processor and memory are no problem as you say and it looks like the Intel graphics chip is standard with a Windows 10 compatible driver available. You can check this by running 'dxdiag' - look for Directx level of 9 or higher and check the name of the graphics controller, then check if there is a Windows 10 driver for that controller.
I would try first updating the drivers and then installing Windows 10, before throwing the PC away or whatever.

 BudH, on 2019-November-29, 06:28, said:

One necessary change I can’t avoid is making it look close to Windows 7. My personal experience is that I gave the default appearance of Windows 10 a try for a full month and my dislike for the appearance never disappeared, so I used Classic Shell to make it look like Windows 7 again.

The other game directors at this club would not be able to handle the default Windows 10 interface. My guess is that would be common for many clubs and their game directors.

Like Sanst I suggest you would be better off using the native interface all the same. I'm surprised you find it so terrible, I wonder how you would have fared with Windows 8 which really was a challenge! I can barely remember what Windows 7 was like now and I'm still getting things done under Windows 10, all in all I find it the best Windows so far (not a difficult feat).

[blackshoe]

 BudH, on 2019-November-29, 06:38, said:

Thanks, Ed. I didn’t really know where to put the post, either! But we often have mentioned the workings of Bridgemates and assocuated software and those aren’t laws or rulings topics.

Perhaps a forum on everything OTHER than laws and rulings (computer use and set up, game movements, differences between club directing and tournament directing, how to quickly seed and balance the field, Bridgemates, Bridgepads, Dealer4, Duplimate, ACBLscore and other scoring software, displaying final results on the web including ACBL forcing Live for Clubs on ACBL clubs, etc.) would be appropriate?

That’s beyond our original purpose here. I’ll think about it.

[pescetom]

 blackshoe, on 2019-November-29, 10:12, said:

That’s beyond our original purpose here. I’ll think about it.

Perhaps rename:
International Bridge Laws Forum (IBLF)
as:
Bridge Laws & Direction Forum (BLDF)


and add the new subforum:
Direction and Management
Best practices, software and other non-laws issues faced by Tournament Directors and Club Managers

[sanst]

 BudH, on 2019-November-29, 06:28, said:

I agree with keeping as many default options as you can. For the function keys, I’ll bet their default is “normal” for the new HP desktop. I probably made an accidental change on my personal Dell laptop.

One necessary change I can’t avoid is making it look close to Windows 7. My personal experience is that I gave the default appearance of Windows 10 a try for a full month and my dislike for the appearance never disappeared, so I used Classic Shell to make it look like Windows 7 again.

The other game directors at this club would not be able to handle the default Windows 10 interface. My guess is that would be common for many clubs and their game directors.

Really? Don’t you underestimate them? Besides, Windows 7 was introduced in 2009 and its successor Windows 8 in 2012. What computers do they use? Anything, if aimed at the general public and bought since 2012, but Macs, run on Windows 8, 8.1 (who would stick to these if you can upgrade for free?) and probably 10.
In The Netherlands most clubs use a program provided by the Dutch Bridge Union. The last couple of years this has undergone more than one major overhaul, including a completely new and very different interface. It took me, a very experienced user, a few hours to investigate its workings and possibilities, but at most clubs the transition was not very problematic. The program needs a modern computer, Core i5 7th gen or beter and Windows 10 to run smoothly, but that doesn’t seem to bother the operators at the clubs.

[BudH]

 pescetom, on 2019-November-29, 07:29, said:

Sounds odd. The processor and memory are no problem as you say and it looks like the Intel graphics chip is standard with a Windows 10 compatible driver available. You can check this by running 'dxdiag' - look for Directx level of 9 or higher and check the name of the graphics controller, then check if there is a Windows 10 driver for that controller.
I would try first updating the drivers and then installing Windows 10, before throwing the PC away or whatever.



Like Sanst I suggest you would be better off using the native interface all the same. I'm surprised you find it so terrible, I wonder how you would have fared with Windows 8 which really was a challenge! I can barely remember what Windows 7 was like now and I'm still getting things done under Windows 10, all in all I find it the best Windows so far (not a difficult feat).

I’ll try running Microsoft’s program again to check for Windows 10 compatability, and I’ll also check explicitly and separately on the integrated graphics card.

And I’ll see if I can make Windows 10 (without the use of a touch screen which we don’t use) appear useable to our game directors without using the Classic Shell program.

[mycroft]

I tend to agree with Sanst in general - interface people get used to (except for me and icons - I can't read kanji either). Just because you can't get used to changes from Win7 doesn't mean that others won't (frankly, I never got used to Win7, so I kept making things look more like XP/NT. Win10 at least has gone back on some of the Win7/8 insanities. So I might not be the best example.)

I strongly suggest, however, that you figure out how to make the function keys function keys without requiring 'fn'.

• ACBLscore uses a *lot* of them - especially if people have got used to running it "from the command line". Who knows what F11 is mapped to on this computer (or F4, which on my computer is *screen off*! or F3 for name check, or F9 for game changing, or...)
• It is a distinct change from what old computers did, and finger memory is harder to change than interface issues (*)

(*) Except, for this unix nerd, Windows' insistence that multiple taps to select is wrong, and that you can't select-and-middle click, you have to copy to clipboard. Oh, and desktop "management". And wasting 20% of precious vertical space on whatever the ribbon is supposed to do. And learning all the wrong lessons from unix when creating powershell. And not allowing changing size/font/placement of the notification toasts. And...

[pran]

Google is a nice program when needing help with (for instance) Windows 10. You can search for almost whatever your problem is (not just windows)

If you search for something like "Windows 10 function keys inverted" you might (like i did) find among other suggestions:

Access the BIOS by hitting F2 once you power on the system.
Once inside BIOS look for an option that says HOTKEY mode or hotkey, and this should be found under the configuration tab.
Change the option and that should reverse the use of FN on your system.

You might also find a lot of other useful information there, so why not try it out?

Good luck on discovering Windows 10

(I have not bothered to change the default operation of windows 10 on any of my machines)

[crazy4hoop]

Here's a copy and paste I found when attempting to download ACBLscore. I hope it helps and answers any questions posed. I apologize if this is not useful at all.

Windows 10 Anniversary Patch Function Key Work Around:
If you are getting a “Parent Window Not Found” error when trying to use the function keys within ACBLscore, follow these steps:
1.When you open ACBLscore, click on the GAME option in the Menu bar
2.Then press the TAB key to move from the first field containing the name of the game to the second field containing the time of day of the game
3.Once the second field is highlighted, the Function Keys become useable again and you can press F2, F3 or F5 to see a list of games to select.

[BudH]

 crazy4hoop, on 2019-November-30, 21:46, said:

Here's a copy and paste I found when attempting to download ACBLscore. I hope it helps and answers any questions posed. I apologize if this is not useful at all.

Windows 10 Anniversary Patch Function Key Work Around:
If you are getting a “Parent Window Not Found” error when trying to use the function keys within ACBLscore, follow these steps:
1.When you open ACBLscore, click on the GAME option in the Menu bar
2.Then press the TAB key to move from the first field containing the name of the game to the second field containing the time of day of the game
3.Once the second field is highlighted, the Function Keys become useable again and you can press F2, F3 or F5 to see a list of games to select.

Yes, that one I am ready for this one. Not happy about it, but I think we'll be able to remember when nothing happens that we better "Tab" to highlight the time of day field!

Oh, and sure enough, on my Windows laptop I must have accidentally hit "Fn" and the Esc key simultaneously. As some had suggested, all I needed to do was do the same thing again and it reversed it back to normal.

I am surprised, however, that it still did this after the computer was off and on. So after I send this message, I'm going to check the BIOS settings.

[BudH]

A follow up to the new club Windows 10 computer:

1. Although I set it up to use Classic/Open Shell software to make it look very similar to Windows 10 if needed, I am not using that software. I did, however, remove nearly every tile in the Start Menu and replaced them with the half a dozen needed for the programs used to run a bridge game. I also added the quick launch bar that came with Windows XP which also includes those same half dozen shortcuts to required programs. And they are icons on the desktop. (So there are three different ways to start all the required programs.)

2. Mike Rothwell's excellent Bridge Timer was paid for by my club several years ago and is an excellent program. Unfortunately, having done a clean install on the new computer, I need a new activation code having removed the old computer from service, but can't make contact. So today, I set up the Duplicate Bridge Timer Rich Waugh's Duplicate Bridge Round Timer instead (although none of the other game directors at the club have ever used this program!).

3. The ACBLscore Windows 10 bug that crashes the program with a "parent directory" error message when on an initial screen to enter the game date and time is a problem because you need to know how to use Task Manager to kill the program, something I just taught our directors how to do this a few hours ago.

4. The function keys F2 through F11 has not been a problem using a standard wireless Logitech keyboard. However, we have had two occasions this week when the function keys stopped working, but after using alternate key strokes (like using Alt+L to bring up the Command List which is what F11 does), suddenly the function keys worked again. We still don't know why that happened. Still investigating.

5. I have not yet tried out the BridgeTD program from Ping Hu on Windows 10 which allows Bridgemates to be used with ACBLscore for a Swiss event. Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to try it out later this month.