BBO Discussion Forums: 2N prospects - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2N prospects Red haze

#1 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,955
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2019-December-02, 20:09


Steve Male wonders how to bid this hand after South has chosen a slighty off-shape 2N?
How should the auction continue after a 3 transfer?
When is 4N RKC? NAT?
Do you have any useful methods/understandings in these cramped auctions?

1

#2 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2019-December-02, 21:03

From a non-advanced point of view, I see no reason for me bidding this any different to as if South opened 1N.

2N - 3
3 - 4 (natural second suit)
4N (no support for either) - 6N
Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
0

#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 607
  • Joined: 2012-October-26
  • Gender:Female

Posted 2019-December-02, 21:34

The danger here is partner may interpret 4 as a second five card suit rather than a four card one, or an advanced cue bid agreeing s. As you said, Nigel, the auction is particularly cramped here, and ill-defined with most partnerships except if they have some specialist gadgetry to deal with this.

It's easy commenting seeing both hands to know that 6NT is the right place to be: with other combinations of 33-34 HCP hands it may be off and 6 or 6 will be the superior contract. And it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a grand slam could be playable, too.

Except if partner has a 2NT hand that can super accept the transfer, I would view any 4NT bid as quantitative here.

Even after an auction such as 2NT- 3 - 3 - 4 - 4, etc I would take 4NT as quantitative as opposed to RKCB as opener has only given preference to , not supported them directly.

As you say, a potentially awkward auction due to lack of space.
0

#4 User is online   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,589
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2019-December-02, 23:02

If you have a 4-level transfer to hearts available, then 4NT after the three-level transfer should be quantitative. However, this hand has to be worth just bidding slam and I would just try 5NT to ask partner to pick a slam. 6C only shows four of them so we'll wind up in 6NT.
0

#5 User is offline   delmo 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: 2016-August-16

Posted 2019-December-03, 00:11

Forget about the off-shape (since you did not know it when it was opened). Just count your partner for 20-21 HCPs. With your 13 HCPs, you don't have enough for a grand slam, but more than what is necessary for a small slam, go straight to 6NT without any further ado.
0

#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,509
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2019-December-03, 02:45

View Postdelmo, on 2019-December-03, 00:11, said:

Forget about the off-shape (since you did not know it when it was opened). Just count your partner for 20-21 HCPs. With your 13 HCPs, you don't have enough for a grand slam, but more than what is necessary for a small slam, go straight to 6NT without any further ado.


You probably don't have enough for a grand but don't rule it out, Axx, AQx, Kxxxx, Kx is plenty for 7N and nowhere near a 2N opener.

I agree with Nigel 2N-3-3-4-4N but you could continue -5N-6 which will now show 5 and would be the right spot if the 2N opener had QJx, AQ, KJx, AQJxx.
0

#7 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,427
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2019-December-03, 03:10

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-December-02, 21:34, said:

The danger here is partner may interpret 4 as a second five card suit rather than a four card one, or an advanced cue bid agreeing s. As you said, Nigel, the auction is particularly cramped here, and ill-defined with most partnerships except if they have some specialist gadgetry to deal with it.

Not sure about other partnerships, but for us the second suit is clearly 4+card and could never be an advance cuebid.

We also have the useful inference from non-use of our Stayman gadget that responder is at most 2-card in the other major, increasing our chances of finding Kxx.
0

#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,665
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2019-December-03, 04:00

This doesn't answer the question, but I would be perfectly happy to open 1 and then jump shift in spades. The suit order means that you can comforably get across the 5-4 shape without raising the level of the bidding and most of south's values are in the black suit.

Given the 2NT opening, Cyberyeti's auction looks about right.
0

#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,668
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2019-December-03, 08:59

View Postsfi, on 2019-December-02, 23:02, said:

If you have a 4-level transfer to hearts available, then 4NT after the three-level transfer should be quantitative.


But after the 4 bid wouldn’t 4NT be to play? I think this is pretty normal.

Also, for there to be the inference you suggest, you would have to allow 4-level transfer with a 5-card suit, which most systems don’t permit. So the 4-level transfer is not totally relevant.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
1

#10 User is online   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,589
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2019-December-03, 17:28

View PostVampyr, on 2019-December-03, 08:59, said:

But after the 4 bid wouldn’t 4NT be to play? I think this is pretty normal.

Also, for there to be the inference you suggest, you would have to allow 4-level transfer with a 5-card suit, which most systems don’t permit. So the 4-level transfer is not totally relevant.


I'm not sure what auction you are positing. I was comparing:

  • 2NT - 3D; 3H - 4NT
  • 2NT - 4D; 4H - 4NT

Where 4NT in the second one is key card and the first one is quantitative. If you have a 5-card suit you are right that you don't transfer at the four level. But you would also not ask for key cards unless partner supports the suit first, in which case you will have other ways to look for slam and don't need a quantitative 4NT bid anymore.

If you are talking about an auction like 2NT - 3D; 3H - 4D, then opener's 4NT bid would indeed be to play. Responder doesn't need 4NT to sign off because partner will either support hearts or cue for diamonds - either of which leads to a suit contract.
0

#11 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,955
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2019-December-03, 18:47


Smerriman suggests the agricultural but highly effective auction on the left.

In SMerriman's auction there is a slight danger that opener's 4N is too high or is interpreted as RKC, Hence John Matheson suggests ...
- 4 by opener = unenthusiastic preference.He further suggests
- 5 by responder = patterni out.
Allowing the partnership to reach 6 or 6N

John Matheson's idea has other potential advantages. Thus, it might even find the Moysian fit when the cards lie as here.

0

#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,924
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2019-December-03, 19:06

View Postnige1, on 2019-December-02, 20:09, said:

Do you have any useful methods/understandings in these cramped auctions?

4 as a second round transfer showing 4+ diamonds. With 4+ clubs you can rebid 3 and if partner continues 3NT, denying 3 hearts, continue with 4 (4 clubs), 4 (5+ clubs). Not that it makes a difference here with Opener not having a fit for either red suit.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#13 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,111
  • Joined: 2008-September-10

Posted 2019-December-05, 05:06

View Postnige1, on 2019-December-03, 18:47, said:


John Matheson's idea has other potential advantages. Thus, it might even find the Moysian fit when the cards lie as here.


There's a 16% chance of a 6-0 or 5-1 club split (plus a possible heart ruff on opening lead or continuation, about 12%). I would take my chances in 6NT on a possible spade lead, 3-3 diamonds, or 3-3 hearts (if opponents mistakenly take 1st or 2nd round), or spade finesse with possible squeeze possibilities.

Bidding depends a lot on the range of 2NT. In general, as the point count increases past 33 combined HCP, the more likely 6NT is making compared to 6 of a suit which can go down on either a bad trump break or a ruff before trump can be pulled.
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users