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1C interference, transfer and new suit IMprecision continuation

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-November-30, 12:30

Atul and I were discussing whether after 1C* (2C) 2D* P 2S the 2S bid was forcing or not. I thought nf but apparently I was wrong.

For folks who don't know, 1C* here is strong and 2D* shows 5+ with hearts.

So I'm wondering if I could get some examples of how we can stop short of game after introducing spades.

Like 2N, 3H and 3S are nf? What opener rebids after 2N would be nf? 3S only? Would 1C (2C) 2D* P 2S P 2N P 3H be forcing? Would think so because we're removing 2N to a possible 5-2 fit.

Let's say responder has something like x Axxxx Jxxxxx xx. Is your style (after 2S) to show the diamonds here or rebid 2N? 2N could be a very silly contract while 3D would likely start a GF? Or wouldn't it?

Also curious about this sort of auction...

1C (1S) 2C* P 2S

This is spades, F1, right?
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-November-30, 15:34

FWIW, your example hand has 14 cards. In any case, we use various jumps and cuebids to show non-GF 5+/5+ two-suiters, so hands like x Axxxx Jxxxx xx (or x Axxxx Jxxxxx x) bid 1-(1)-3 (diamonds and a major).

This means the hands that transfer are usually one of:

1. Somewhat balanced (although [5134] is possible if not short in the opponents presumed suit)
2. Six-plus suit
3. Game force

The non-forcing continuations after a F1 new suit by opener at the two-level are 2NT, rebid, raise. This does leave a few problem hands in case #1 above, the worst of which is like 1543 after 1-(2)-2-(P)-2 with no club stopper. But it's not clear where we are going here anyway and even if 3 was "natural NF" it is not particularly clear this improves the contract -- I'd bid 2NT and hope for the best. Partner knows this problem exists and might check back with 3. Note that opener will often accept the transfer with 2 and a min (I wouldn't auto-bid 2 with 5233 or 5242 for example), so 2 is usually one of:

1. Six-plus suit
2. GF values
3. 0-1
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-November-30, 16:39

Thank you.

I think 1C (1S) 3D used to be something like a 3H preempt.

So now something like

dbl-takeout
1N-GF bal
2C-transf
2D-transf
2H-transf
2S-GF clubs
2N-like a club preempt
3C-5-7, clubs and a major?
3D-5-7, diamonds and a major
3H-5-7, majors
3S-antipositional for 3N

I've the biggest question marks about 3C (obviously) and if you're using 2H to show spades. I've read somewhere you're more keen on opener being able to show spades than responder as responder can simply trap while opener cannot.

Also does your 3S bid deny 4 hearts?
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#4 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2019-December-01, 05:17

 straube, on 2019-November-30, 16:39, said:

Thank you.

I think 1C (1S) 3D used to be something like a 3H preempt.

So now something like

dbl-takeout
1N-GF bal
2C-transf
2D-transf
2H-transf
2S-GF clubs
2N-like a club preempt
3C-5-7, clubs and a major?
3D-5-7, diamonds and a major
3H-5-7, majors
3S-antipositional for 3N

I've the biggest question marks about 3C (obviously) and if you're using 2H to show spades. I've read somewhere you're more keen on opener being able to show spades than responder as responder can simply trap while opener cannot.

Also does your 3S bid deny 4 hearts?


We actually play 2NT and 3 the other way, which I think has some slight advantages (right-siding 3NT for example, when opener has a big hand that wants to play there opposite clubs and 4-7). It's true that responder can trap pass with spades, but we do play 2 as spades in this particular auction anyway (mostly because 1 is a very common psych). We have no particular "agreement" about whether 3 denies hearts, but we certainly have no way to FIND hearts after this start so it would be an unusual hand that bids 3 with four hearts.
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-December-01, 09:19

We'd discussed the possibility of swapping 2H and 2S here before and I think you saw some value in doing so but wanted to keep 2H as spades for consistency. How about using though...

2H-GF clubs
.....2S-opener gets to show spades
2S-5-7, clubs and a major
.....2N-asks? Lebensohl?
2N-GF spades

but I first need to ask if you're trapping with 5-7 spades or entering the auction?

I'm guessing you enter the auction because you're trying to show all the 5-7 5S/5m combinations. But you apparently trap, too. Which 5-7s do you trap and which do you bid? Obviously you want to avoid playing a 5-1 fit at the 2-level when LHO wasn't psyching.

There's a tradeoff between showing 5/5s and showing "like an opening preempt" hands. I saw how showing the 5-5 fixes a hole in your prior post, but how strong a preference do you have for 5/5 vs showing the "opening preempt" hand? Your previous approach.

Asking because I think I would miss the latter more. If I'm 5H/5m I can show hearts with a transfer and usually find a fit. If I'm 5S/5m I can trap.

Unfortunately space is so tight after even a 1S overcall and one can't have everything.

Thanks for sharing what you're doing. It's already been very helpful.
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#6 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-December-01, 09:48

Or maybe

2H-GF clubs
2S-5-7, S/X
.....2N-asks 2nd suit
2N-GF spades
3C-club preempt
3D-5-7, 5H/5D
3H-5-7, 5H/5C
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#7 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-December-02, 00:20

1C (1S)
.....2H-GF clubs
..........2S-5H
..........3H-5S

is probably a better swap. Opener is much more likely to have hearts than spades.

Now we can agree hearts or spades at the 3-level.

Wondering whether 1C (1S) 2D P 2H P 2N should be invitational or GF.
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#8 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-December-06, 11:10

I've been testing the following structure and it seems to do pretty well...

P-0-4 or GF awkward (usually spade length) or 5-7 with spades
.....dbl-takeout
.....2S-natural
dbl-takeout
1N-GF balanced
2C-5+, diamonds
2D-GF clubs
2H-5-7 hearts
2S-GF hearts
2N-GF spades

Looking for ideas for the 3-level. At the moment I have

3C-5-7, clubs
3D-GF, 5D/5C
3H-GF, 5H/5C
3S-GF, 5S/5C
3N-GF, 5S/5H

because it's difficult to show the GF 5X/5C hands and it's arguably important to show the 5S/5H hands.

Any thoughts?
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#9 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2019-December-06, 15:27

View Poststraube, on 2019-December-06, 11:10, said:

3C-5-7, clubs
3D-GF, 5D/5C
3H-GF, 5H/5C
3S-GF, 5S/5C
3N-GF, 5S/5H

because it's difficult to show the GF 5X/5C hands and it's arguably important to show the 5S/5H hands.

Any thoughts?


Seems like 3N precludes the possibility of playing there unless the intent is to show a minimum GF hand. Also, since 2 is GF as well, does it deny a second 5-card suit (same for 2N with GF )?
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-December-06, 15:43

2N wouldn’t deny a second 5-card suit (except clubs). It’s hard to describe 5S/5C hands with a start of 2N because clubs are shut out after a red suit rebid.

I’ve gone back and forth about GF 5S/4H. We can often pick up a 4/4 heart fit after 2N-3m but if opener has say 2434...

Yeah 3N would have to be limited to maybe 11 hcps or so. With more, probably start 2N and rebid hearts at whatever level.

Suggestions welcome
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