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bidding after 3 club opening from opponent

#1 User is offline   maris oren 

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Posted 2019-November-27, 03:21

east opened with 3 clubs. south-pass, west pass. I (north) have 14 hcp, 6 spades A,K, J, 10,6; 3 H, 8,6,4; 4 D-A,Q,8,2 ; void in clubs
What should i bid?
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#2 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-November-27, 04:01

3S - this hand is good, but not good enough to force to game without any sign from partner.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-November-27, 04:57

3 looks sensible, but I'm inclined to bid 4 here. Over a pre-empt I give partner about 8 HCPs, and partner is hardly going to raise a 3 bid to 4 with a doubleton and about an 7/8 count. Your hand is worth about a 17/18 count in support of s with its void.

The problem with all this is why haven't the opponents raised s here, though? That doesn't make sense.

Aggressive bid 4; sensible bid 3
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-November-27, 12:31

Your choices, in no particular order, appear to be 3S, 4S and double.

Btw, it is common to set out a hand without commas or spaces, so something like this: 'You hold AKJ10xx xxx AQxx void. The auction goes (3C) P (P) to you...

It is also useful to set out the vulnerability, since one's choices will often be affected by the vulnerability. You are more likely to seek a penalty if they are vulnerable than when they are not, and your own vulnerability plays into that as well.

Finally, in terms of posting a problem, mention the form of scoring. For instance, at imps, settling for +500 on defence rather than risking a thin +620 on offence is often a smart move, because you are only losing 3 imps if you could have been +620, but at mps, you may be risking a bottom board, and so on.

I am definitely NOT trying to discourage you from posting: this is an interesting hand, and I thank you for posting it :)

Now to how I'd answer this at the table.

Firstly, while it is entirely possible, to the point (against good opps) of being very likely that partner has length in clubs, and may have strength as well, this is not a hand where I would feel like doubling. The double caters to a penalty pass, but I really don't like doubling in these circumstances with a void. Oftentimes a good declarer can end up endplaying your partner in the trump suit: if you had a stiff club, for example, you'd be able to lead it through declarer early on, helping to minimize that risk. Plus partner won't expect a void when he decides what to do after you double. Finally, when you have a long, strong suit, that suit may not take many tricks on defence.

Also on that point: is this hand strong enough that you can double and then bid spades? Normally doubling then bidding your suit shows significant extras. I think this is close to that, since in balancing seat the strength shown by various bids has a lower strength limit than would apply in direct seat. So I wouldn't worry too much about being too weak to double then bid, but the club void is enough to make me rule that out, when there are two other logical choices.

3S: in direct seat, over 3C, I would bid 3S. This is a good hand...and I would have bid without the club Queen, but it isn't good enough to double then bid spades in direct seat, and it isn't good enough to jump to 4S. Note that after your RHO has preempted, the odds are that his partner, to your left, has his or her share of the missing hcp...unless partner has useful cards, you can expect your black suit finesses to lose.

In 4th seat, now you can expect the black suit finesses to be more likely to win than if you were in direct seat. There are no guarantees: people do preempt with side cards, after all, but the odds are now tilted in your favour.

Plus note above that actions in balancing seat usually have lower strength requirements than in direct seat. This would be a 'full values' direct seat overcall, and that makes it on the cusp of being too strong for 3S, in that partner has to cater to your holding a weaker hand, and may not raise when game is good.

So I bid 4S: partly because I can hope for a useful lie of the cards if partner can't help in the black suits, and partly because I feel this is just a bit too strong for 3S.

It is foolish to imagine magic cards for partner: partners rarely hold them, but note that a blah hand such as Qx xxxx KJx xxxx, with which he'd never raise 3S, and has too many clubs for RHO to have had a raise, makes game trivial. Don't ever make bids based on the notion that a magic hand makes your action good, but it is fair to imagine a variety of hands when choosing between close actions. My point isn't that you should gamble that partner has magic cards, but that you can see that 3S will often miss a reasonable game.

Btw, while I don't like doubling with a void, move a spade into the hearts, so that you are AKJ10x xxxx AQxx void, and you'd have no choice, imo, other than double...your spade suit is too short to insist upon, and you'd be ok with partner bidding either red suit.

Again, thanks for the post.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#5 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-November-28, 03:54

Please use the hand editor
Its not hard

The hand you have written does not contain 6 spades
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#6 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-November-28, 04:31

View Postmaris oren, on 2019-November-27, 03:21, said:

east opened with 3 clubs. south-pass, west pass. I (north) have 14 hcp, 6 spades A,K, J, 10,6; 3 H, 8,6,4; 4 D-A,Q,8,2 ; void in clubs
What should i bid?



I vote for double. There is a good chance partner has a suitable hand to pass, if he bids
3 I pass
3 I bid 3
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-November-28, 04:54


Close decision. I rank
1. 4 = Overbid but ...
2. 3 = Underbid...
3. Double = Nethken might well be right.

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#8 User is offline   drmbl 

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Posted 2019-November-28, 06:55

View Postmaris oren, on 2019-November-27, 03:21, said:

east opened with 3 clubs. south-pass, west pass. I (north) have 14 hcp, 6 spades A,K, J, 10,6; 3 H, 8,6,4; 4 D-A,Q,8,2 ; void in clubs
What should i bid?
3

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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-28, 07:35

View Postnekthen, on 2019-November-28, 04:31, said:



I vote for double. There is a good chance partner has a suitable hand to pass, if he bids
3 I pass
3 I bid 3


At IMPs I would just blast 4.
I'm ok with double playing MPs, but I don't think I would pass diamonds then - it's going to be a poor score if 3 makes.
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#10 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-November-28, 12:02

I think mikeh had it right. X is awkward with this sort of hand. What can partner do after X, and how will you like it?

1. Pass - this rates to be very bad for us. We only really have 2 tricks on defense, so even if we beat it, it won't make up for the likely game we have.

2. 3D - Not likely partner will bid 3D, but if he does, you can bid 3S relatively comfortably. Your hand wasn't really strong enough to X and then bid, but if partner bids 3D, that improves things quite a bit.

3. 3H - Now we have to bid 3S, and this is a slight overbid.

4. 3S - Easy - raise to 4

5. 3NT - Again, we have to bid 4S, and this now becomes enough of an overbid that we might end up in a bad slam

6. 4H - This is a likely bid, and now you are stuck. You can pass, only to find that partner has 4H, the suit breaks badly, and you go set. Or you can bid 4S, only to end up in 6S -1.

I think the practical call here is 4S. It should have good chances opposite most hands partner will have.

Happy Turkey Day,
Mike
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