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Asking for the queen twice

#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 02:45

blah-blah
4NT-5
5

5=2 kc, no Q
5= Q?
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 03:14

It might as well mean something... asks for the J?
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 06:52

View Posthelene_t, on 2019-November-06, 02:45, said:

blah-blah
4NT-5
5

5=2 kc, no Q
5= Q?

Perhaps ...
- 5 = S/O s agreed.


But you need agreements. For example if are agreed as trumps then you might define...
5/6 = ASK for 3rd round control in that suit. Confirms all key cards.
5N = ASK for Ks. Confirms all key-cards.
6 = S/O



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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 08:36

View Posthelene_t, on 2019-November-06, 02:45, said:

blah-blah
4NT-5
5

5=2 kc, no Q
5= Q?


In stone-age Blackwood, the next suit would be an attempt to sign-off in 5NT.

I don't think that you should ever bid 5 without a firm agreement with partner and I don't have one. But I think that such an agreement should (1) confirm that all key cards are present and suggest a Grand Slam (2) Show (or ask about) a spade control - if second-round control is known, then third-round control.
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 14:20

It could be king ask, then the 5NT response shows the king of spades.

Or it could show a second round spade control. Or ask for it. Or be some kind of generic GST, maybe specifically asking for J or extra trump length, or just for extra quick tricks somewhere.

Or it could be undefined.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#6 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 15:42

What was the assumed trump suit?
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 15:56

View PostTramticket, on 2019-November-06, 08:36, said:

In stone-age Blackwood, the next suit would be an attempt to sign-off in 5NT.

You're right, I had forgotten that. Maybe GIB plays it.

View PostTramticket, on 2019-November-06, 08:36, said:

I think that such an agreement should (1) confirm that all key cards are present and suggest a Grand Slam (2) Show (or ask about) a spade control - if second-round control is known, then third-round control.

Seems to me a marginal gain, especially if you already play Specific Suit Ask.
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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-November-07, 04:05

View Postpescetom, on 2019-November-06, 15:56, said:

Seems to me a marginal gain, especially if you already play Specific Suit Ask.


Specific Suit Ask won't identify the K when the agreed suit is hearts, since this will commit you to a Grand anyway.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-07, 10:38

View PostTramticket, on 2019-November-07, 04:05, said:

Specific Suit Ask won't identify the K when the agreed suit is hearts, since this will commit you to a Grand anyway.


If the concern is RKCB with trumps and 4NT as the Keycard Ask (which is a SNAFU I agree, especially if you play 0314) then it might be better just to define 5 as the (specific) King Ask (5NT reply = K).
Just thinking out loud, as there must be some reason why people don't do this B-)
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#10 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-November-07, 17:47

View Postpescetom, on 2019-November-07, 10:38, said:

If the concern is RKCB with trumps and 4NT as the Keycard Ask (which is a SNAFU I agree, especially if you play 0314) then it might be better just to define 5 as the (specific) King Ask (5NT reply = K).
Just thinking out loud, as there must be some reason why people don't do this B-)

Most pairs in the Netherlands play that way. Even in stone-age Biedermeijer, "streamlined king ask" is introduced before RKCB.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-09, 08:22

View Posthelene_t, on 2019-November-07, 17:47, said:

Most pairs in the Netherlands play that way. Even in stone-age Biedermeijer, "streamlined king ask" is introduced before RKCB.


Wow. In that case, I will play that way too! A small gain, but at no price except memory load.
Only for hearts, as we use a Kickback for the minors so repeating the asking strain costs little there and helps maintain some clarity.
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