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ATB: overbidders anonymous

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-November-01, 15:53

Matchpoints. EW are vul.



NS system: Acol (weak NT 4cM)

Result was -1, even with the perfect layout in trumps (Kx onside). Who might have bid less aggressively?

Thanks,

ahydra
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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-November-01, 16:01

I agree with very few bids here, I'm not flat broke so I overcall 1 rather than X, but I'm influenced by our overcalling style, this is a long way off max for us. I don't bid 1 over 1, if I play a style where I do bid 1 on this I bid 3 over 2 and respect partner's 3 signoff over this.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-November-01, 17:38

I don't mind the first double. The alternative is 1H and then double, assuming that double makes sense, next time, and with a heart raise, we can always bid spades, if below game and the auction makes sense. My style is that the prototypical 1H then double promises approximately 3=6=3=1, with about these values.

As I say, I wouldn't get too worked up about this.

1S, again I can take it or leave it: I'd probably not bid it because the suit is dreadful, the shape is worse, and the strength is minimum. If partner can't act again, where am I going? And I doubt that 1D is being passed out....since partner either has some diamonds (as do we) or he has a big hand. In the first case, South is probably bidding and in the second West is definitely bidding.

However, while one can argue that the initial bids by E-W were or were not ok, 4S is silly. Partner didn't bid 2S...he bid 1S. 3S asks: do you have a reason to bid 4? IOW, given that 1S is fairly tightly constrained, 3S asks...are you average or better. As it is, since East is sub-minimum, even 3S is a terrible contract, on the auction. Had 3S failed, the blame would, imo, rest on East because 1S would be the worst call of the auction. As it is, 4S is so much worse than 1S that West wears most of the blame. However, since a pass by East over 1D would likely have avoided the bad result, and since pass is, imo, much better than 1S, East wears a little....say 80-20.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-November-02, 03:25

W has a first choice to make. Either X and probably losing a 53 H fit or good, or 1H (despite the weak suit) and some noise later. The latter is probably a bit more flexible but it is not the main reason for the final result.

I have some sympathy for E. The hand is not ideal for sure, but we’ll regret remaining silent if it goes 2C pass pass. At least we took our chances to buy the part score battle for +110 or -50 or push them to the 3 level. While not overstating our strength. But if in partnership’s style, it should show something better, then pass is clear (and this could explain W bidding 4S next).

W’s 4S is more extreme I think, especially at MP. Partner promised some kind of « positive » 5-7, but the good 4531 16-count is probably not enough to justify bidding game w/o asking partner’s opinion (SQ looks good, but DQ looks bad). 3S should be just right (and E passes it in a rush while almost regretting his 1st bid).

So most blame on W - except if E overbid vs partnership’s understanding.
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#5 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-November-03, 03:26

1 by East: no. 4 by West: no. There's lots of losers in both hands, even accounting for the distributional values of the fit.
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-November-03, 14:32

 FelicityR, on 2019-November-03, 03:26, said:

1 by East: no. 4 by West: no. There's lots of losers in both hands, even accounting for the distributional values of the fit.



Like mikeh I have some comprehension for 1, but 4 definitely no. I also would prefer Michaels to double if partnership has agreed that it could be 5-4 and whether it should be 2 or 2 over a natural 1 (I prefer 2, even if it could be 2-card in 4432, but the important thing is to agree).
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#7 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2019-November-04, 21:38

I think apollo's post is spot-on.
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#8 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-November-05, 04:12

Sirs.the 1S call is just not believable.The 4S call is the worst of the auction.Its upto the pairs understanding however..We would bid 3S albeit with just a little tremor as the value of the DQ is debatable and the heart suit is not what it should be to provide winners. In such a specific bidding situation we play a 2D overcall as Flannery or a strong diamond suited hand. (5 losers hand with no interest in majors). The TOD is a natural bid with tolerance for all the three remaining suits.There is nothing special in the heart suit to give a preference to a 1H overcall.Playing with a strange partner that will be our choice Thanks.
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#9 User is offline   KingCovert 

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Posted 2019-November-06, 10:16

I don't think I can add much more to this than others have. But, I will differ and say that the worst call on this auction is 1S. That's not a 5 HCP hand... It's more like a 3 HCP hand. 4333 hands are not worth their HCP.

I sympathize with the fact that East is holding an ace, but to compete over interference holding an 11 LTC hand is horrible bridge. 4S is also a really bad call, but it'll have some play a lot of the time opposite a hand that actually has its 1S call.

With a hand so bad, do you ever have a suit preference? Those 4 spades don't guarantee a fit and the reality is: Your preferred strain is the strain partner tells you is best when they rebid. At which point, you can pass. Because that West hand should do nothing but pass the entire auction.
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#10 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2019-November-07, 01:18

 KingCovert, on 2019-November-06, 10:16, said:

I don't think I can add much more to this than others have. But, I will differ and say that the worst call on this auction is 1S. That's not a 5 HCP hand... It's more like a 3 HCP hand. 4333 hands are not worth their HCP.

I sympathize with the fact that East is holding an ace, but to compete over interference holding an 11 LTC hand is horrible bridge. 4S is also a really bad call, but it'll have some play a lot of the time opposite a hand that actually has its 1S call.

With a hand so bad, do you ever have a suit preference? Those 4 spades don't guarantee a fit and the reality is: Your preferred strain is the strain partner tells you is best when they rebid. At which point, you can pass. Because that West hand should do nothing but pass the entire auction.


i agree. it's only the qd being under the bid that makes west's a bit excessive. the east hand is just rubbish.
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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2019-November-07, 02:55

I'd be tempted with 1 on the East hand. It is the worst hand I would do it with, but at MPs in a competitive auction, you need to get your major fits established, especially if it is the boss suit. It would be a shame to pass and see South bid 3 passed round, then write -110 on the card when we could have gone one off in 3.

East's 4 bid is awful, that is like tying a noose around your partners neck and pulling the rope. I wouldn't bid 1 if I had a partner that bids to the stratosphere at the slightest provocation.
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#12 User is offline   KingCovert 

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Posted 2019-November-08, 17:10

View PostAL78, on 2019-November-07, 02:55, said:

I'd be tempted with 1 on the East hand. It is the worst hand I would do it with, but at MPs in a competitive auction, you need to get your major fits established, especially if it is the boss suit. It would be a shame to pass and see South bid 3 passed round, then write -110 on the card when we could have gone one off in 3.

East's 4 bid is awful, that is like tying a noose around your partners neck and pulling the rope. I wouldn't bid 1 if I had a partner that bids to the stratosphere at the slightest provocation.


I'll just re-state this point, because I don't think you're really considering it enough when saying it's the worst hand you'd make the 1 call with, the hand is 4333. If that hand had a doubleton in either red suit, that saves a trick, and well, declarer only went -1 on the hand. You don't call 1 if you take away a spade, and the odds that you have a 2-1 club fit on this auction are significantly lower than the odds that either red suit could be doubleton. Is 4 really such a poor bid in context? Either 1 shows more values, or more shape.

I think you undersell how much play 4 usually has on this auction. The more I think about this, the more convinced I become that 1 is just horrible.
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