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Interesting 2/1 auction

#1 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 11:27

Playing 2/1, no one Vul. Here is the auction and the hand. Questions are below:

1.) Do you agree with the auction to this point?
2.) With the given auction, we have no agreement. What could/should 4 mean, and what do you bid?
3.) The most likely alternative auction is 1-1; 2. What do you bid if the next bid is... (a) 3 (4th suit forcing) (b)3 (natural)?
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#2 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 13:45

The answer to (2) really depends on your agreements about 3. Was it forcing? If it was forcing, what is the difference between it and 4 - uncertainty over strain or extra values or possibly either? (Or - a remote possibility - 3 sets trump and 3 is a cue in support.)
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#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 14:44

View Postchasetb, on 2019-October-02, 11:27, said:

Playing 2/1, no one Vul. Here is the auction and the hand. Questions are below:

1.) Do you agree with the auction to this point?
2.) With the given auction, we have no agreement. What could/should 4 mean, and what do you bid?
3.) The most likely alternative auction is 1-1; 2. What do you bid if the next bid is... (a) 3 (4th suit forcing) (b)3 (natural)?


1. I sympathize with 3H but I prefer 2D
2. 4D sounds like an unbalanced hand, probably 65 or maybe 64.
3. I would follow with 4H.
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#4 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 21:36

I also would rebid 2 especially if it implied extras in a 1 - 1 auction. It's forcing and let's you keep all options open.

Given the 3 call in the actual auction, 3 should convey game interest. It should usually show 5+ and no fit (void or stiff). The problem is that 3 is the only forward going bid below 3 NT, so might not be as advertised but necessary for game.

In any case, after 3 NT is bid, any further bid ought to be natural. Responder has the choice of bidding 4 even without a fit knowing that 3 should show good s. Responder can bid 4 with a long suit and interest in no other game. And responder can simply pass 3 NT in most other circumstances.

4 must be natural. I'm bidding 5 knowing that to partner's surprise that my hand will be the master hand that is set up. I wish there was a way to ascertain if the assets for slam are there, but anything else you do at this point risks too much chance of being misinterpreted without explicit agreements.
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 21:59

1. The normal rebid is 2 but given the suit quality, you'd rather play in a 6-1 fit than a 4-3 fit so 3 makes some sense.

2. Partner is likely to have five diamonds as you have in principle denied four of them. With a 5143 he could have bid a quanti 4NT. But I suppose he could also have six spades and a diamond control, if you don't play SJS.

3a/b: 3. I am not so keen on playing 3NT with a void, even if it is in partner's suit. If partner now bid 3 I can suggest 3NT.
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 08:48

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-October-02, 21:36, said:

I also would rebid 2 especially if it implied extras in a 1 - 1 auction. It's forcing and lets you keep all options open.


2 is forcing?
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 12:35

View PostVampyr, on 2019-October-03, 08:48, said:

2 is forcing?

Not in my world, nor does it promise extras.
But I still prefer it to 3 or 3.
EW silence is forcing.
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 19:23

View Postpescetom, on 2019-October-03, 12:35, said:

EW silence is forcing.

:D
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#9 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-October-04, 06:02

IMO, this is too strong for 2!D or 3!H. Game rates to make opposite QJ of !D and out. Absent special methods to force, i rebid 3!D.
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-October-04, 06:24

View PostRuflRabbit, on 2019-October-04, 06:02, said:

IMO, this is too strong for 2!D or 3!H. Game rates to make opposite QJ of !D and out. Absent special methods to force, i rebid 3!D.


It also makes nothing opposite some quite decent hands which can be complete waste paper opposite (how many tricks do you think you're making opposite a spade suit headed by the AK and Jxxx ?)
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#11 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-October-04, 17:39

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-October-04, 06:24, said:

It also makes nothing opposite some quite decent hands which can be complete waste paper opposite (how many tricks do you think you're making opposite a spade suit headed by the AK and Jxxx ?)


I might even make opposite that. But IMO if I'm that pessimistic, I'm going to miss a lot of games before my pessimism is justified.
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#12 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-04, 21:07

View Postpescetom, on 2019-October-03, 12:35, said:

Not in my world, nor does it promise extras.
But I still prefer it to 3 or 3.
EW silence is forcing.


Quite. The benefit of 2D is that if partner prefers back to 2H you can then self raise to 3H to show the extras.
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#13 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-October-04, 21:10

View PostRuflRabbit, on 2019-October-04, 17:39, said:

I might even make opposite that. But IMO if I'm that pessimistic, I'm going to miss a lot of games before my pessimism is justified.


The problem I have with your position is not the optimism but the one-sided nature of your views - you do have a partner, you know. Not only should one be optimistic but one should also play with partners with whom they have trust to make a reasonable bid.
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#14 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-October-05, 09:38

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-October-04, 21:10, said:

The problem I have with your position is not the optimism but the one-sided nature of your views - you do have a partner, you know. Not only should one be optimistic but one should also play with partners with whom they have trust to make a reasonable bid.


I believe very strongly in partnership trust. With less than this, I will trust partner to know when to raise a 3H rebid or to strain a bit to keep the auction alive after a 2D rebid. But partner will in turn trust me not to make a non-forcing rebid on a 4 loser hand.
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#15 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2019-October-06, 13:48

View Postchasetb, on 2019-October-02, 11:27, said:

Playing 2/1, no one Vul. Here is the auction and the hand. Questions are below:

1.) Do you agree with the auction to this point?
2.) With the given auction, we have no agreement. What could/should 4 mean, and what do you bid?
3.) The most likely alternative auction is 1-1; 2. What do you bid if the next bid is... (a) 3 (4th suit forcing) (b)3 (natural)?


1.) Yes, I agree with the auction. I slightly prefer 3 to a 2 rebid, though it's close. (2 intending 3 next would also work for me.) It's just not worth 3.

2.) 4 is probably natural, at least that's how I should interpret it until partner says otherwise. I now bid 5. If partner had something else in mind with 4, he will let me know.

3.) --(a) 3
------(b) 4
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#16 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 10:09

View Postchasetb, on 2019-October-02, 11:27, said:

Playing 2/1, no one Vul. Here is the auction and the hand. Questions are below:

1.) Do you agree with the auction to this point?

I do. All well and good consulting partner and keeping the bidding low. If you rebid 2 it will be difficult to convince your partner that hearts can play opposite a void and that you have a good hand.
Jump rebidding your major is a very practical bid. I can see many hands where 4 makes and 5 is down when partner has 4 cards in diamonds and shortage in hearts.

Quote

2.) With the given auction, we have no agreement. What could/should 4 mean, and what do you bid?

I think it should be natural, but partner is allowed to correct back to spades. Then it will turn out it was a slam try with a very strong spade suit later.
Bid 4. What else? You do not want to play diamonds.

Quote

3.) The most likely alternative auction is 1-1; 2. What do you bid if the next bid is... (a) 3 (4th suit forcing) (b)3 (natural)?

Bid 4, but I do not like this auction.

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#17 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 11:14

Sir.With due apologies ,I learnt a new sequence today.1H-P-1S-P-2D is forcing is something new.Pray what does one rebid with x-AQxxx-KJxxx-Qx ?and if 2D here is also forcing what is the difference between these two hands or is one supposed to rebid 1NT on this hand?.As per my little knowledge 2D is strictly a non forcing bid as it allows responder to pass holding say Qxxx-x-Qxxx-Kxxx. or any other such resembling limited hand where game is not possible.In my personal opinion 3H is somewhat a much better bid although the hand is stronger than that.3H is a passable bid as we think it the way we were taught.And over 3S we would still bid 4H as we certainly do not wish to play in a somewhat ridiculous 3NT.S regards the the 4D bid we can only surmise that the way we play it shows a weakish double suited(he did not bid 4D over 3H) hand.Pardon me if my thought process is incorrect.May be a sequence like 1H-P-1S-P-2C is forcing in the super expert circle.THANX
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#18 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 14:06

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-October-10, 11:14, said:

May be a sequence like 1H-P-1S-P-2C is forcing in the super expert circle.


These are the special methods (e.g., Gazzilli) to which I cryptically alluded, but you do have to have agreed that 2C is an artificial force and on the follow-ups to it.
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-October-10, 14:17

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-October-10, 11:14, said:

Sir.With due apologies ,I learnt a new sequence today.1H-P-1S-P-2D is forcing is something new.Pray what does one rebid with x-AQxxx-KJxxx-Qx ?and if 2D here is also forcing what is the difference between these two hands or is one supposed to rebid 1NT on this hand?.As per my little knowledge 2D is strictly a non forcing bid as it allows responder to pass holding say Qxxx-x-Qxxx-Kxxx. or any other such resembling limited hand where game is not possible.In my personal opinion 3H is somewhat a much better bid although the hand is stronger than that.3H is a passable bid as we think it the way we were taught.And over 3S we would still bid 4H as we certainly do not wish to play in a somewhat ridiculous 3NT.S regards the the 4D bid we can only surmise that the way we play it shows a weakish double suited(he did not bid 4D over 3H) hand.Pardon me if my thought process is incorrect.May be a sequence like 1H-P-1S-P-2C is forcing in the super expert circle.THANX


We actually do play that 2 is forcing unless you didn't really have a response, playing 3 on the hands you give is not a big issue, you actually have little defence to 2 and should make 3. It means we can use 3 for something else, and keep the bidding low when we have good but not brilliant hand.
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#20 User is offline   wank 

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Posted Yesterday, 08:59

id think 4m was a cue for spades.

i would have rebid 2d. after 2d-3d id bid 4h. after 2d-3c id bid 3h.
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