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After a BIT How would you rule?

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2019-October-01, 15:49



Director was called when South bid 5 as North had taken some time to pass after 4. The bidding continued and after consulting the Director rolled the result back to 4 making, instead of the 2 downs doubled the contract reached at the table went. Do you agree with the ruling?

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-October-01, 16:29

I would be really annoyed to get this ruling as my argument would be that I was bidding 4N or 5 over an in tempo pass, and I might expect to be ruled against if I passed and it was right as partner's hesitation suggests a marginal double with enough in spades to think about it (which is likely useless to me in a minor) given my hand which would put me off bidding.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-October-01, 17:05

View PostHanoi5, on 2019-October-01, 15:49, said:

Director was called when South bid 5 as North had taken some time to pass after 4.

Did EW reserve their right to call the director later at the time of North's BIT? If so, did NS agree to the BIT?
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#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 00:55

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-October-01, 17:05, said:

Did EW reserve their right to call the director later at the time of North's BIT? If so, did NS agree to the BIT?


I have never really understood what “reserve one’s rights” is really supposed to mean. It seems aggressive and unnecessary. It is important to establish the BIT though, preferably before partner has made a call. If that cannot be done then the director must be called.

It is easier when partner, before making a call, says , “I realise it was slow”.
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#5 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 01:03

Do your regulations include compulsory pause (like after skip bids) in competitive auctions?
If so then the "BIT" by North before passing after the 4 bid is no irregularity (unless the pause is excessive).
(FWIW this applies here in Norway.)
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 01:36

As usual you need to poll.

(1) What are would South bid without the hesitation? Is pass a logical alternative? [My guess is that pass is a logical alternative].
(2) What is suggested by the UI of the break in tempo. It might be that the BIT suggests that partner was contemplating doubling - in which case a pass is suggested. It might be that the BIT suggests that partner was contemplating bidding - in which case bidding is suggested. [My guess is that a poll would conclude the first of these two].

If, after polling, we do conclude that South made use of UI in bidding 5, then I would expect a weighted ruling as it is not clear to me that East will be making 4
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#7 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 04:32

View Postpran, on 2019-October-02, 01:03, said:

Do your regulations include compulsory pause (like after skip bids) in competitive auctions?
If so then the "BIT" by North before passing after the 4 bid is no irregularity (unless the pause is excessive).
(FWIW this applies here in Norway.)

There was no skip bid after 3NT by W. This situation didn’t come up after a full round of the auction.
I agree with Tramticket that a poll is necessary. Would I have been S, I would have introduced my clubs too, because I’ve no tricks in the defense. But I wouldn’t have doubled 2, which would have required more HCP’s and preferably two hearts.
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#8 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 06:28

View PostTramticket, on 2019-October-02, 01:36, said:

(2) What is suggested by the UI of the break in tempo. It might be that the BIT suggests that partner was contemplating doubling - in which case a pass is suggested. It might be that the BIT suggests that partner was contemplating bidding - in which case bidding is suggested. [My guess is that a poll would conclude the first of these two].

It might also be that the BIT suggests partner has clubs - in which case bidding clubs is suggested. Clearly not the situation as it turned out, but pollees might think it likely.
[My guess is that a poll would produce no clear verdict on what is suggested].

View PostTramticket, on 2019-October-02, 01:36, said:

If, after polling, we do conclude that South made use of UI in bidding 5, then I would expect a weighted ruling as it is not clear to me that East will be making 4

It looks to me as if he will be making one overtrick, not sure if there is any reason to weight between that and game or even down in some way.
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#9 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 08:47

I'm not a tournament director, but I'd probably would have hit South (and North, too for good measure) with my handbag!

Yes, distribution is everything, but how South dragged up three bids on that pile of tramtickets is anyone's guess? And, North, must have known what was going on as after partner's X of 2 and the opponent's bid of 3NT, and 4 as he/she just kept quiet.

I agree fully with the ruling. Actually the tournament director had a valid case that North knew that South was psyching, and should have awarded E/W a score of 4X making +790, in my honest opinion.
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#10 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 09:12

View Postsanst, on 2019-October-02, 04:32, said:

There was no skip bid after 3NT by W. This situation didn’t come up after a full round of the auction.
I agree with Tramticket that a poll is necessary. Would I have been S, I would have introduced my clubs too, because I’ve no tricks in the defense. But I wouldn’t have doubled 2, which would have required more HCP’s and preferably two hearts.


Quotes from the Norwegian regulation:
A competitive auction exists (at the three-level and above) whenever at least one player on each side have bid, doubled or redoubled during the last previous round of the auction.
"The STOP procedure shall be used with any bid, double or redouble at the three-level or higher in a competitive auction."
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 09:31

View PostVampyr, on 2019-October-02, 00:55, said:

I have never really understood what “reserve one’s rights” is really supposed to mean.

As I understand it, the intent of this is to avoid wasting time calling the TD until it seems like the recipient of the UI has actually taken advantage of it. The sequence of actions is:

A player does something that potentially transmits UI.
An opponent draws attention to this.
If the offending side disagrees that UI was transmitted, they call the TD immediately to resolve this.
If they agree that there was UI, the NOS may wait until actual damage results before calling the TD. If no damage occurs, everything proceeds normally.

I suppose you think that the TD should still be called immediately, so the OS can be informed of their duty not to take advantage of the UI. I guess the Lawmakers considered this to be understood. The TD's instructions would have to be pretty general, they can't tell a player something like "5 would be suggested by the UI, so you must not bid that".

Or maybe you're just saying that they can call the TD later, they don't have to "announce" that they're going to do so. I don't think this is expected to be an aggressive action, just a reminder that by continuing you're not admitting that there's no problem.

#12 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 14:27

View Postpran, on 2019-October-02, 09:12, said:

Quotes from the Norwegian regulation:
A competitive auction exists (at the three-level and above) whenever at least one player on each side have bid, doubled or redoubled during the last previous round of the auction.
"The STOP procedure shall be used with any bid, double or redouble at the three-level or higher in a competitive auction."

It seems that the auction in Norway takes a very long time. :)
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#13 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 14:30

View Postsanst, on 2019-October-02, 14:27, said:

It seems that the auction in Norway takes a very long time. :)

Got to fill those long winter nights somehow.

#14 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-October-02, 14:33

That Norwegian regulation seem quite reasonable. Expecting players to make competitive decisions at high levels in normal tempo is unrealistic.

On the other hand, is it really necessary to regulate this? If you expect players to have tough decisions at that level, does a hesitation demonstrably suggest anything in particular?

#15 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 02:11

View Postsanst, on 2019-October-02, 14:27, said:

It seems that the auction in Norway takes a very long time. :)

Standard time with reasonably experienced players is 7 minutes/board with an additional 2 minutes for changing to the next round.
so with 4 boards/round the allocated time/round is typically 30 minutes (all included).
I don't know how that compares to other jurisdictions?
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 08:14

View Postbarmar, on 2019-October-02, 09:31, said:

As I understand it, the intent of this is to avoid wasting time calling the TD until it seems like the recipient of the UI has actually taken advantage of it. The sequence of actions is:

A player does something that potentially transmits UI.
An opponent draws attention to this.
If the offending side disagrees that UI was transmitted, they call the TD immediately to resolve this.
If they agree that there was UI, the NOS may wait until actual damage results before calling the TD. If no damage occurs, everything proceeds normally.

I suppose you think that the TD should still be called immediately, so the OS can be informed of their duty not to take advantage of the UI. I guess the Lawmakers considered this to be understood. The TD's instructions would have to be pretty general, they can't tell a player something like "5 would be suggested by the UI, so you must not bid that".

Or maybe you're just saying that they can call the TD later, they don't have to "announce" that they're going to do so. I don't think this is expected to be an aggressive action, just a reminder that by continuing you're not admitting that there's no problem.


Of course you must call the TD if there is no agreement on the facts. But if the facts are agreed, you do not somehow lose the right to call the director later, so you are not “reserving” anything.
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#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 08:17

View Postbarmar, on 2019-October-02, 14:33, said:

That Norwegian regulation seem quite reasonable. Expecting players to make competitive decisions at high levels in normal tempo is unrealistic.

On the other hand, is it really necessary to regulate this? If you expect players to have tough decisions at that level, does a hesitation demonstrably suggest anything in particular?


Quite possibly. The Norwegian regulation is a good one.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#18 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 12:31

View Postpran, on 2019-October-03, 02:11, said:

I don't know how that compares to other jurisdictions?

Haven't seen four board rounds in a while. Generally, at the club we get, iirc, 6:40 per board plus about 30 seconds "move time". Assuming anyone is paying attention to the clock at all.
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#19 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 13:19

View Postpran, on 2019-October-03, 02:11, said:

Standard time with reasonably experienced players is 7 minutes/board with an additional 2 minutes for changing to the next round.
so with 4 boards/round the allocated time/round is typically 30 minutes (all included).
I don't know how that compares to other jurisdictions?



View Postblackshoe, on 2019-October-03, 12:31, said:

Haven't seen four board rounds in a while. Generally, at the club we get, iirc, 6:40 per board plus about 30 seconds "move time". Assuming anyone is paying attention to the clock at all.


Below 7 minutes is humming along. Our regulations say 7m 30s per board for a club tournament, with no extra allowance for move time - so a bit tight with 2 boards, far too much with 4.
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#20 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-October-03, 19:19

View Postpescetom, on 2019-October-03, 13:19, said:

Below 7 minutes is humming along.

Indeed. Yet we still get people wanting to push things along well before the end of the round.
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