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Defence to Mini No Trump

#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 06:48

England were doing well - 1st place - in the World Championships, and leading Canada comfortably after 8 boards until this hand came along. I was watching live in the middle of the night with a cup of tea silently cheering on our team, but the next three boards saw them, sadly, lose 34 IMPs, and this board was pivotal to Canada fighting back. And Canada eventually won the match after a few more topsy-turvy boards.

https://www.bridgeba...ch.php?id=65509

I realise the mini NT (10-12) is a useful bidding weapon to have in your repertoire at favourable vulnerability but was there anything, or any defence, that could be effective against it on this board? The bidding at the other table was after 3 passes 1NT by West, 3NT by East making 10 tricks.

[Flip the East/West hands and it's an easy second seat double with 15 HCP balanced.] However, after the 2 transfer by South, West in 4th seat seemed powerless.



And, as always, thank you for your replies.
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#2 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 07:44

I am a big fan of being able to double an artificial response to a weak NT to show a big hand. It doesn't solve everything, but it's a good start with these sort of hands. East could now double hearts for takeout and E-W should find 3NT.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 08:55

View Postsfi, on 2019-September-17, 07:44, said:

I am a big fan of being able to double an artificial response to a weak NT to show a big hand. It doesn't solve everything, but it's a good start with these sort of hands. East could now double hearts for takeout and E-W should find 3NT.


That's what I was thinking about when I saw the hand played. However, the problem is South is unlimited when the 2 transfer is made. If East has a Yarborough or near Yarborough hand here instead of an nine count, it could result in either a big penalty against East/West vulnerable or a contract where North/South possibly make overtricks in a doubled/redoubled contract.

It's easy enough balancing with a double when the transfer has been completed if you are short in the opponents suit, but what parameters would you set to double the artificial bid of 2? How big a hand, and what shape, etc. It's easier at favourable vulnerability to do this but adverse vulnerability presents a problem. That's probably why West never competed.
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 09:05

View Postsfi, on 2019-September-17, 07:44, said:

I am a big fan of being able to double an artificial response to a weak NT to show a big hand. It doesn't solve everything, but it's a good start with these sort of hands. East could now double hearts for takeout and E-W should find 3NT.


What would you do if they were playing natural responses, and what would 2NT show here ?
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#5 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 09:08

It's in our notes as a penalty double of 1NT. We don't have an explicit strength agreement, but this would be about minimum. You are right that you can get into trouble, but you are doubling an artificial bid and have to be unlucky to need to run but not have anywhere safe to land. You can't let them steal your hands that easily though.

My guess is that West didn't compete because they use double for something else. That might be fine in the long run, but didn't work today.
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#6 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 09:14

View Postpescetom, on 2019-September-17, 09:05, said:

What would you do if they were playing natural responses, and what would 2NT show here?

Pass and hope partner can balance. 2NT shows minors for us, and committing our side to 2NT on this hand without partner showing values would be losing bridge IMO. Auctions like this is one reason play weak NT - you can be preempted even at the one-level.
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 11:32

There is a reason that some players (still) play 10-12, and this hand is a great example.

It is common to play that (1N) P (2C) x is just a good hand, saying nothing about clubs. One reason is that it is also common for 10-12 notrumpers to run, via a 'fake' 2C bid, often with 4=4 or 4=3 in the majors, hoping to scramble into a 2-level contract. I speak as someone who played 10-12 for a number of years.

It is not so common (to the point that I never saw it done, but then I didn't play transfers over 1N, preferring a relay method with gf hands) to play that the double is the big hand. Whether it makes sense to me is unclear, but I tend to think not, on frequency grounds.

With the big hand, one will usually not hold significant length in the suit to which the opps have transferred and when you do that may make your hand worth less in terms of offence than otherwise, because you are unlikely to build length tricks in the suit. So with a big hand short(ish) in their major, you can pass and then, should responder pass, double. If on the other hand you have to start with double, you may be about to encounter a buzz-saw when RHO has a decent hand.

Meanwhile, the lead-directing/competition-suggesting 'natural' double can be very useful in fighting for the part-score, and a part-score swing is still useful even at imps.

Every now and then, their system hits a home run. Unless you have discovered a previously-overlooked systemic gap in your understandings, you simply shrug and move on. The worst thing you can do is to change your system to cater to a low-frequency layout. There was a reason for your methods (at this level, they will definitely have a reason for what they play), and that reason almost surely remains as valid as it was.

Here, with them about to play in her best suit, and with only 15 hcp, West was simply stuck.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#8 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 12:39

I'm wondering if the description of 2 is accurate.

In my mini-NT partnership, I play that 2 is one of (in roughly decreasing order of frequency):

1) less than invitational with 5+ hearts
2) game forcing with 5+ diamonds
3) invitational with 5 spades
4) invitational with 6+ clubs
5) both minors, any strength

(The NT opener is 100% required to bid 2 to cater to (1), after responder passes with (1) and has various bids to show the other options.)

With a marginal hand, the possibility of the strong options makes a double riskier.
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#9 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 01:08

Sir.as West we would pass on the 2D bid by RHO.When RHO passes the 2H bid we bid a TOD.Agreed we may or may not reach 3NTdepending on partners response.
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 03:10

FelicityR 'England were doing well - 1st place - in the World Championships, and leading Canada comfortably after 8 boards until this hand came along. I was watching live in the middle of the night with a cup of tea silently cheering on our team, but the next three boards saw them, sadly, lose 34 IMPs, and this board was pivotal to Canada fighting back. And Canada eventually won the match after a few more topsy-turvy boards. https://www.bridgeba...ch.php?id=65509 I realise the mini NT (10-12) is a useful bidding weapon to have in your repertoire at favourable vulnerability but was there anything, or any defence, that could be effective against it on this board? The bidding at the other table was after 3 passes 1NT by West, 3NT by East making 10 tricks. [Flip the East/West hands and it's an easy second seat double with 15 HCP balanced.] However, after the 2 transfer by South, West in 4th seat seemed powerless.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Immediately over a weak 1N, John Matheson recommends doubling with 14+ HCP.

In 4th seat, you might double 2 -- conventionally suggesting a lead -- but perhaps the best fudge on the given hand.
England have dropped to 5th in the Bermuda Bowl RR :( still qualifying comfortably for the KOs :)

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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 05:16

Massive bit of resulting, 3N is a terrible contract that makes, all 3 key cards are in the right place, Make the N hand xxxx, Qx, KJx, KJxx and see how much you enjoy 3N.
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#12 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 05:52

View Postsfi, on 2019-September-17, 07:44, said:

I am a big fan of being able to double an artificial response to a weak NT to show a big hand. It doesn't solve everything, but it's a good start with these sort of hands. East could now double hearts for takeout and E-W should find 3NT.

I am also a big fan getting into the bidding as soon as possible when every card the opponents hold is on the right side (Q, K,J) and opponents are therefor unable to establish any long suit of their own.
After all it is very tough to overbid these deals particularly when vulnerable
Of course I am a bit more cautious when I smell this is not the case and my smell is excellent when I can see the complete deal.

Rainer Herrmann
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#13 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 07:59

View Postrhm, on 2019-September-18, 05:52, said:

I am also a big fan getting into the bidding as soon as possible when every card the opponents hold is on the right side (Q, K,J) and opponents are therefor unable to establish any long suit of their own.
After all it is very tough to overbid these deals particularly when vulnerable
Of course I am a bit more cautious when I smell this is not the case and my smell is excellent when I can see the complete deal.

Rainer Herrmann


You're saying you wouldn't drive to 3NT with East when partner shows something equivalent to a strong NT and you know where all the points are? If you say so ...
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#14 User is offline   KingCovert 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 10:17

I personally play a 10-12 NT, and if there is one auction I'm never worried about it's 1NT-X where X is for penalty. Good pairs have effective run-out systems and I feel that more often than not double just serves as a mechanism to improve the contract.

I think the reason that a penalty double hasn't shown itself to be effective against our 10-12 NT is because people are downgrading the quality of the hand necessary to penalize at the one level. It's not really penalty, it's general takeout and optional penalty. But, when you play a pair that has a run-out system, they will never play 1NTx if they don't want to, and in fact, in our system we can't play 1NTx, only 1NTxx.

So, I have two comments on how to combat it, that I won't claim are necessarily best.... I never play against it sadly. But, it's okay to play the same systems you already do - not necessarily ideal but, okay. I wouldn't downgrade my criteria for a penalty double, that bid needs to have integrity, when opponents run you can't find yourself disliking your hand, and partner needs to be able to penalize. Although, I don't play penalty doubles, they're not frequent enough to justify in my mind. What I would personally do is overcall with both less points or distribution. There's no particular reason to be scared to compete over a completely average hand without shape. 4-4 shape is completely fine.

You'll take some losses playing this way, but on average, you'll get a much better result. At least I hope so.
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#15 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 11:01

View Postsfi, on 2019-September-18, 07:59, said:

You're saying you wouldn't drive to 3NT with East when partner shows something equivalent to a strong NT and you know where all the points are? If you say so ...

I try to be quite clear with my statements.
In case you did not get it:

I usually look at 13 cards when I sit down and bid at the table and I recommend some caution when judging the bidding of others looking at 52 cards instead.

I ran a simulation creating 1000 random deals giving West and East the hands they have and stipulating that South will have 5 hearts and North a balanced hand with 10-12 HCP.

Double Dummy Result:

On average West would make 7.8 tricks per deal at notrumps
3NT would make on 234 deals, that is a 23.4% chance.

Now West would have to double at some point presumably for take-out for East to bid 3NT with the actual hand.
East can have at most 2 hearts so he is unlikely to sit. There are at most 15 HCP unaccounted for.
Tell me how West is supposed to know that East will have the majority of the remaining HCP?
Why could not South hold 9 HCP and East 6 HCP instead and North could also have one or two HCP more leaving even less for East?
What is West supposed to do if East bids 3 in response to a double?
What is West to do if 3 gets doubled ?

Rainer Herrmann
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#16 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 13:09

You seem to have missed my first post, which outlined agreements that can get you to 3NT on this hand, for better or worse (I might have wound up defending 2Hx instead). And I would expect to do better than a double-dummy result on average given the information shared by the opposition in the auction

I'm not saying game will always make, even on this hand. But there are agreements that will stop them from stealing the contracts quite so easily.
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#17 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 14:27

View Postsfi, on 2019-September-18, 13:09, said:

You seem to have missed my first post, which outlined agreements that can get you to 3NT on this hand, for better or worse (I might have wound up defending 2Hx instead). And I would expect to do better than a double-dummy result on average given the information shared by the opposition in the auction

I'm not saying game will always make, even on this hand. But there are agreements that will stop them from stealing the contracts quite so easily.

I did not miss your point, in fact I quoted your first post in full. However you missed my point, namely that bidding with the West hand, given that South shows hearts is the sure sign of a loser, no matter what the outcome on the actual deal would be.
The risks are far higher than the potential gains

Rainer Herrmann
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#18 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 14:48

View PostKingCovert, on 2019-September-18, 10:17, said:

I personally play a 10-12 NT, and if there is one auction I'm never worried about it's 1NT-X where X is for penalty. Good pairs have effective run-out systems and I feel that more often than not double just serves as a mechanism to improve the contract.

I think the reason that a penalty double hasn't shown itself to be effective against our 10-12 NT is because people are downgrading the quality of the hand necessary to penalize at the one level. It's not really penalty, it's general takeout and optional penalty. But, when you play a pair that has a run-out system, they will never play 1NTx if they don't want to, and in fact, in our system we can't play 1NTx, only 1NTxx.

So, I have two comments on how to combat it, that I won't claim are necessarily best.... I never play against it sadly. But, it's okay to play the same systems you already do - not necessarily ideal but, okay. I wouldn't downgrade my criteria for a penalty double, that bid needs to have integrity, when opponents run you can't find yourself disliking your hand, and partner needs to be able to penalize. Although, I don't play penalty doubles, they're not frequent enough to justify in my mind. What I would personally do is overcall with both less points or distribution. There's no particular reason to be scared to compete over a completely average hand without shape. 4-4 shape is completely fine.

You'll take some losses playing this way, but on average, you'll get a much better result. At least I hope so.



I disagree with almost everything in this post.

I do agree that many pairs do not take the penalties that are available. Against almost any but expert pairs, my experience (having played a lot of 10-12 at all levels up to and including the BB), is that more times than not the opps came to our rescue after 1N (x).

But that is far less true against good players than average or worse. In one team trials event we went for 1100 at the 2-level, with -800 attainable only double-dummy, while our teammates were +110, could have been 130.

The reality is that if one picks up a 4333 2 count and partner bids 1N and RHO doubles, you are losing imps unless the opps screw up. Which, admittedly, they often do unless they are good.

As for overcalling light or showing 2-suiters with 4-4, one of the reasons we kept playing 10-12 was that most opponents seem to think that it is safer to overcall light or flat against a weak 1N than against a strong. Imo, this is simply untrue.

In both cases the danger is that responder knows opener's hand within fairly narrow constraints, and can judge accurately what to do. Yes, responder needs a better hand to double (or to pass a reopening double if a direct double is negative, as I always play), but he is likely to have that better hand, since there are fewer hcp in opener's. Advancer finds himself in a box when he can't trust overcaller to have strength or shape: if he passes, then some of the time overcaller has a real hand, but if he bids, he may find overcaller had garbage, and remember that good opps can sometimes pull the trigger.

Even more importantly: after a strong 1N one's competitive bidding should be aimed at either or both disrupting their auction or fighting for a partscore. It is rare to be able to bid game after a strong 1N, so while one has to allow for it, it is not a focus of the system design.

By contrast, a 10-12 1N leaves ample room for game, and so one's bidding should be constructive to a degree that simply makes no sense over a strong 1N.

Advocating a wider range for action over weak compared to strong makes little sense, to me anyway.

Also, playing the same methods, when the goals are so different, makes little sense as well. Again, over strong notrump one is not aiming at maximizing our game bidding, nor is one, usually, trying for penalties (although historically double was for penalty and some good players still use it that way). When the opps open 10-12, otoh, and overcaller holds 15, overcaller should be trying for blood on a hand on which he should pass a strong 1N in tempo.

I think the problem that leads to advocating these sorts of methods/approaches (including the notion of using (1N) p (2D) x as generally strong, arises from a reluctance to accept that sometimes you are going to get a bad result by taking a normal action.

Weak 1N bidders, especially 10-12, know that they are going to get hammered every now and then. They accept that risk because the upsides are so good. The main upside is that too many opponents get goaded into unwise action. me? I'm quite content to let the occasional steal happen, and quite content to hammer them when that opportunity arises.

Btw, I stopped 10-12 for three reasons. One is that it disrupted the notrump rebid scheme, and I disliked using 1C and 1D to differentiate between balanced 13-15 and 15-17 hands. The second is that we found too many auctions that started 1m (P) 1red (1S) (or 1C (P) 1D (1M), when at the other table it went 1N 3N, and LHO had a blind lead. Thirdly, we found that our opening pass, in a 10-12 1N seat, made it easier for opposing declarers to place cards, since unless we showed shortness, we were maxed out at 9 hcp.
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#19 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 22:36

Possibly a double by west should show a penalty double of 1NT, and in that case I think the West hand is good enough. E then doubles 2 for take-out and West might chose to leave it in.

Without that agreement, East is a bit too weak to double 2 so you will defend 2 undoubled which is actually OK. 3NT happens to make but all the finesses work.

So with this particular West hand you are OK playing double as showing diamonds, but what would you do if West had 18 points?

Against a 2 (transfer to spades) bid I am not sure if it's such a good idea to have double showing a penalty double of 1NT, though. Showing spades is also often convenient.
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#20 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2019-September-19, 06:38

View Posthelene_t, on 2019-September-18, 22:36, said:

Possibly a double by west should show a penalty double of 1NT, and in that case I think the West hand is good enough. E then doubles 2 for take-out and West might chose to leave it in.

Without that agreement, East is a bit too weak to double 2 so you will defend 2 undoubled which is actually OK. 3NT happens to make but all the finesses work.

So with this particular West hand you are OK playing double as showing diamonds, but what would you do if West had 18 points?

Against a 2 (transfer to spades) bid I am not sure if it's such a good idea to have double showing a penalty double of 1NT, though. Showing spades is also often convenient.

What is the point of playing double as a penalty double of 1NT if the opponents are not in 1NT any more?
You can play double showing a balanced hand, in which case you should still define what it says about West heart length.
I am pretty sure you would not suggest DBL of 2 if West had a balanced hand with a fifth heart.
Why should North bid 2 over the DBL?
When is East supposed to bid 2 or 3 over the DBL?
With hearts it seems more prudent to wait and double then, but West is a bit weak for this action.

Rainer Herrmann
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