[mike777]

The_Hog, on May 17 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

Two points:
The HK is definitely not as important as showing the solid Ds - you have a source of tricks.
I would pass 4S as I fear 2 Spade losers. Over 4D, as Richard has already intimated, 4H would be Last Train.
A splinter is poor as it again does not emphasise the D suit.

I see Bridge Encyclopedia of bridge differs strongly from Hardy's minimum hand in his book.

"..LONG SOLID SUIT... A TYPICAL HAND WOULD BE..."

1C=1H
4C

4
KQ54
A5
AKQ852

"AN ALTERNATIVE MEANING FOR THIS SEQUENCE IS TO SHOW A HAND WITH LONG MINOR, PROBABLY SEVEN CARDS, AND EXACTLY THREE CARDS IN PARTNER'S MAJOR."

[Fluffy]

mike777, on May 17 2005, 11:57 PM, said:

"AN ALTERNATIVE MEANING FOR THIS SEQUENCE IS TO SHOW A HAND WITH LONG MINOR, PROBABLY SEVEN CARDS, AND EXACTLY THREE CARDS IN PARTNER'S MAJOR."

Who did write that encyclopedia?, I guess not many europeans :-P

[mike777]

Fluffy, on May 17 2005, 08:02 PM, said:

mike777, on May 17 2005, 11:57 PM, said:

"AN ALTERNATIVE MEANING FOR THIS SEQUENCE IS TO SHOW A HAND WITH LONG MINOR, PROBABLY SEVEN CARDS, AND EXACTLY THREE CARDS IN PARTNER'S MAJOR."

Who did write that encyclopedia?, I guess not many europeans :-P

Truscott, ex. european

Philip Alder
Per Jannersten
Sandra Landy
Jean-Paul Meyer
Svend Novrup
Julian Pottage
Barry Rigal

there may be others......

[HeartA]

I voted for 4D.

[mike777]

3H


Some of my old buddies are voting for splinter bid of 3h, showing some shortness in h or clubs.....
They want P to describe hand further.
The concern is 4s over a 4c or 4d rebid so they opt for this.



"If 3H shows either shortness in H or C,(sound like
mini splinter,not as strong as the real hand shows)
that would be my best bid.I want to be in game for
sure,but dont want to give up slam easily.So, if
partner only bid 3S and try to sign off,I would bid
4C(my shortness) telling partner I am not giving up
slam yet even though you try to sign off at 3S.(so
that was not mini splinter any more,must be huge
hand,just tried to make a forcing bid first) So if
partner has AKxx-xxx-xxx-xxx,he must realize that
trump suit quality must be my problem to RKC and go
overboard. If partner jump to 4S or 3N(over 3H) ask
where the shortness is? then I would just take control
RKC to go even Grand Slam.When you have hand like
that,it's impossible to tell partner your hand, just
need to take control when partner show good hand.
The problem with splinter 4C bid or Strong 4-6,4D bid
Still not describing your hand,after 4C or 4D and
partner bid 4S, will you go on or pass? become real
problem of you.(Jxxx-Qxx-xxx-KQx,cant even make 5) So
GIVE SOME ROOM TO YOUR PARTNER TO SHOW HIS HAND, and
GIVE YOURSELF ONE MORE ROOM TO SHOW SLAM INTEREST EVEN
AFTER YOUR PARTNER DECLINE GAME."

[whereagles]

hrothgar, on May 17 2005, 04:28 PM, said:

whereagles, on May 17 2005, 06:49 PM, said:

hrothgar, on May 17 2005, 12:12 PM, said:

2.  Holding a strong hand, parter can establish captaincy and trot out his choice of slam tools to investigate level an strain.

Sorry to bother you again, but how can pard be strong when you hold that rock-crusher??

It has to do with math
I doubt that you'd understand...

With this said and done, you might want to review some basic texts by Mike Lawrence and the like...

Focus ideas like the "core" and how relative strength is plastic

Here's a little free advice: stop insinuating that other people are stupid. Especially when you don't know them.

[inquiry]

Scoring: IMP

BPO-002D
S----------W---------- N----------E
1♦…………..Pass…………1♠…….…..Pass
? your bid

---

This was a how would the panel show this tremendous hand in support of spades. The options seemed to me to be jumps to, 4♠, 4♦, 4♣, and 4NT. Since we were just discussing Luis’s view on how his bids might not score well, let’s examine his creative answer on this hand.

luis “3♥ splinter; I know this is probably going to score low due to the lack of votes but I think it's quite a good bid. Over 3♥ if pd has no wasted values in hearts he can encourage with 4♣ or 3NT depending on the club control, then it would be safe to check for keycards and find the best contract. If over 3♥ pd bids 3♠ which is very probable I can cuebid 4♦ as a new effort. 3♥ shows both a heart singleton or void, a strong hand and 4 card spade support so it's quite descriptive. What I don't like about the probably popular 4♦ bid is that over 4♠ by pd you will face a guess and probably bid 4NT so in my distorted mind 4♦ should score almost the same as 4NT and since you can have problems making 5♠ on many layouts I don't think 4NT is a good bid.”

Agreeing with Luis, but not calling it a splinter was French Champion, phicro: “ 3♥: "Superforcing" showing spade fit in a hand too strong for a splinter (which would have been at 4♥) and shortness in clubs.” A fragment bid in hearts, showing club shortness, spade fit, now we are getting somewhere. This makes a lot of sense to me, and I never once considered bidding 3♥ on this hand.

Here, Luis prediction that 4♦ would be popular choice was wrong. In fact, only two panelist bid 4♦. Gabor explained the basics of 4♦ bid this way, “4♦: It’s a classic with 6-4 (solid diamond and 4 card support). The problem is that this hand is too good. I bid 4D with QTxx, AJ, AKQxxx, x also. What is more important? Splinter (4♣) or show solid diamond? Showing the solid diamond allow partner to count tricks. Slam is OK, if she has 2 key cards: spade AK (I don’t know: is Last Train part of the system?, or 2 Aces and spade Jack, or spade KJ and Ace of clubs). After 4H (Last Train) I would have no problem, but there is no agreement about LT, so after 4S sign off on a good day I will take another try, because 5S is relative safety contract.” We can solve some of this, Last Train is part of the system if you include serious 3NT, so when we answer the question from problem B, we solve this question as well. Reisig also waffled between the splinter and solid suit bid: “4♣ or 4♦ ..4♣=splinter raise...4♦ = 4♠ bid with 6 good ♦, my choice is 4♦” ). In fact, like Luis, I thought 4♦ was wrong on this hand, despite its meaning of solid suit and strong four card support, which is why I posed the problem. The vast majority of the panel agreed that 4♦ was wrong, and the popular bid was 4♣. This was Fred’s choice too. Here are the explanations from the other panelist, see if you agree with why 4♦ can not be correct.

Cascade: “ 4♣ Splinter for spades. Partner should be worth a try with minimum values and working points. With ♠AKxx it maybe difficult for her to try for slam but I would expect a jump to 5♠ with as little as ♠AKxxx and out.”

Walddk2 4♣. Splinter, singleton or void. We are likely to make slam opposite as little as AKxx spades and out, so 4♠ would be a serious underbid. Besides, 4♠ would show a balanced or semi-balanced 18-19 count as I play it. It's mandatory to show a shortage if you have enough for game. Another option is a 4♦ rebid if you have the agreement that this shows solid diamonds and 4-card spade support (it should for 4♦ to make sense), but the problem with this is that partner may be worried if he has no club control. He surely has no heart control (either) as it is.

Jlall, 4♣. Superficially it would seem 4♦ is a better bid, 6-4 with concentrated values. However, the key to this hand is whether or not partner has wasted club values or not. It's easier to get him to appreciate that the KQ of clubs are BAD if we bid 4♣ instead of 4♦ (4♦ could be 4162 so pard won't know how to evaluate that club holding if we choose 4♦). I am not going to drive this hand to the 5 level if pard signs off in 4♠, although that could easily be right. If I were going to always go to 5, I would just bid 4N right now.” Ritong, agree’s explaining, “4 clubs, I intend to pass 4 spades. If this was not the case, I would bid a direct 4NT.”

awm: ”4♣. Tough hand, and depends a lot on who my partner is. Will partner pursue slam holding ♠AKxxx and out? If so, I am happy to splinter and pass if partner rebids 4♠. Certainly this could be the limit if partner holds some club wastage (opposite both black kings, even five spades requires finding the spade jack). Opposite a more passive partner, a direct keycard bid might be least of evils.”

So Luis, Justin, and several players are worrying about avoiding getting to a level too high in 5♠ and choose auctions in an attempt to avoid a unilateral push to 4NT and thus get useful information out of partner below 4♠. In fact, this is also implicit in Roland and Fred’s choice to bid 4♣. A second, odd man out here is Fluffy, who simplified the auction with “4NT, just Blackwood, there is no way we will stop below the 5 level, so any other bid is a lose of time.”

My choice on this hand, before reading Luis’s and phicro’s highly creative answers, was 4♣ for the reasons stated by Justin and even Luis (as it relates to what is wrong with 4♦). This hand shows that even if you play 4♦ as describing a 4-6 hand with solid diamonds, there are hands that fit this meaning where using that bid is wrong. I have to admit that my vote was (would be) 4♣. But I am almost totally convinced that 3♥ is better than 4♣. But, 4♣ has the advantage of having partner discount the ♣King/Queen, while 3♥. But with phicro’s spin on 3♥ as a fragment, so partner will only cue-bid club ACE, I am fired up that 3♥ is the best bid. But if it shows splinter and BBO advance bids first or second round controls up the line, over 3♥ partner will cue-bid 4♣ with ACE or King, a 4♣ cue-bid will not clarify the situation for you. So while I admire the creativity of 3♥, and I will impliement phicro’s definition with my partners in the future, I am worried if this fits with BBO-Advanced. We should have good discussion on this issue in this thread.

For the scoring, 3♥ was scored higher than 4♦ despite similar votes, because of the panel's overall rejection of 4♦ and because the reasons for 3♥ fit the same reasons for bidding 4♣.

VOTES  Panel  Score
4♣        6       100
3♥        2      80
4♦        2      60
4NT        1      40

[Rebound]

Just for the record, my choice was 4NT. I only mention this because I wanted to thank Ben for his fine alanysis. It was very educational and I will make good use of it in future.

[hrothgar]

>Jlall, 4♣. Superficially it would seem 4♦ is a better bid, 6-4
>with concentrated values. However, the key to this hand is whether or
>not partner has wasted club values or not. It's easier to get him to appreciate
>that the KQ of clubs are BAD if we bid 4♣ instead of 4♦ (4♦ could be
>4162 so pard won't know how to evaluate that club holding if we choose 4♦).

How often do you have a 6-4 hand without side shortage?

In all seriousness, I'd love it if the panel members who voted for a 4♣ splinter would provide example hands where they consider 4♦ to be the right rebid...

[luke warm]

richard said:

In all seriousness, I'd love it if the panel members who voted for a 4♣ splinter would provide example hands where they consider 4♦ to be the right rebid

a perfectly reasonable request... even tho i voted 4♣, 4♦ does seem to describe this hand

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on May 18 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

In all seriousness, I'd love it if the panel members who voted for a 4♣ splinter would provide example hands where they consider 4♦ to be the right rebid...

I would like to know what is the implication of 4D in terms of clubs control.

Superficially, to my intermediate understanding, it seems to me that the 4D bid should specifically promise or deny a control in clubs besides promising solid diamonds.

Pard should be allowed to signoff if he "sees" clubs unstopped.

[joker_gib]

inquiry, on May 18 2005, 06:26 AM, said:

awm: ”4♣. Tough hand, and depends a lot on who my partner is. Will partner pursue slam holding ♠AKxxx and out? If so, I am happy to splinter and pass if partner rebids 4♠. Certainly this could be the limit if partner holds some club wastage (opposite both black kings, even five spades requires finding the spade jack). Opposite a more passive partner, a direct keycard bid might be least of evils.”

I totally agree and that's why I voted for 4NT !

After 4♣, you will hear 4♠ 98% of the time because partner hasn't got any red control (♦ is your suit) and is unable to go to slam with only AKxx in ♠ !

I thus agree with Fluffy that any other bid is a waste of time

Alain

[luis]

hrothgar, on May 18 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

>Jlall, 4♣. Superficially it would seem 4♦ is a better bid, 6-4
>with concentrated values. However, the key to this hand is whether or
>not partner has wasted club values or not. It's easier to get him to appreciate
>that the KQ of clubs are BAD if we bid 4♣ instead of 4♦ (4♦ could be
>4162 so pard won't know how to evaluate that club holding if we choose 4♦).

How often do you have a 6-4 hand without side shortage?

In all seriousness, I'd love it if the panel members who voted for a 4♣ splinter would provide example hands where they consider 4♦ to be the right rebid...

Hi Richard,

I didn't vote for 4♣, I think the problem of 4♣ is that it should denote interest for a 4♦ cuebid, 4♣ is a great bid when you have or AQJ, KQJ in diamonds and need to see if pd can cuebid 4♦. I think it's probable that pd will pay more attention to his diamond holding than his values in clubs if we bid 4♣.

My ideal hand for 4♦ is a 6-4 hand without values in hearts or clubs. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe this needs a partnership agreement, I consider KJxx, xx,AKQJxx, x a good 4♦ bid. The point is that 4♦ takes away a lot of bidding space so it's important to know how to continue. 4♥ asking for the singleton seems to be a good idea for hands where you need to know if pd has a singleton heart or club. I really don't think you can include many hands in 4♦ and have a way to get out of the mess in just 2 bids.

I also think that this hand and many others are not exactly a piece of cake to bid so fundamentalist views saying that 4♦ or 4♣ is "da-bid" are just poor thoughts, there're many options and we may never know what is best but reading what we think about each option will surely help us make a better choice in the future.

Luis

[awm]

Amusingly, this hand is the first one where my choice (4♣) received a perfect score... and also the first one where, after reading the other choices and the analysis, I am totally sure my choice was wrong! 3♥ is a better bid. If partner jumps to 4♠, it's almost unbelievable that this could be without any keycards, so 4NT will then be safe. If partner signs off in 3♠, we can bid four without much chance of losing a slam. If partner cues we can blast keycard.

Some more clarification about serious 3NT / LTTC would be nice. Again, I should mention that:

(1) LTTC is NOT mentioned anywhere in the notes. I do not think that this is "automatic" when playing serious 3NT. In fact it has nothing to do with serious 3NT, and perhaps more to do with the "bidding all second round controls, bypassing denies second round control" cuebidding style. If we're supposed to be playing it, some details on it would be appreciated -- I'm not sure a lot of people are aware of all the inferences involved.

(2) The notes in serious 3NT make clear that it is on "in a game forcing auction when we have a known 8-card major fit." Then a specific exception is made for the auction 1m-1M-3M. Yet people seemed to think serious 3NT was on in the auction 1♠-2♥-3♥. So... how about 1M-3M? Or 1M-2M? Surely bidding 3NT always establishes a game force... yet the way the notes are stated seems to make clear that the auction had to be game forcing BEFORE the 3NT bid (by the inclusion of the "specific exception" hand). What's up here?

[hrothgar]

I must say that the 3♥ splinter rebid makes no sense to me...

Note that playing BBO Advanced, players cuebid both first and second round control. Partner's 4♣ cue bid will provide some useful information regarding range, however, it doesn't clarify whether or not we have a club loser.

3♥ does provide partner with the opportunity to clarify range via Serious 3NT, however, as I've noted that 4♦ bid provides the same information while providing a very precise description of opener's hand...

[han]

I have the advantage of reading this after the hand has been discussed, and I will try to use this to my benefit. I agree that this hand is too good for either 4C or 4D (even though I agree that last train is essential in such auctions).

I would bid 3H, an invitational (or better) heart splinter. If partner goes to game (which he would always do with 2 keycards) then I follow with 4NT, else "sign off" in game.

3H has two advantages over 2H: (1) it sets spades as trump and (2) it points out that partner's heart honors are irrelevant.

[HeartA]

luis, on May 18 2005, 09:53 AM, said:

My ideal hand for 4♦ is a 6-4 hand without values in hearts or clubs. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe this needs a partnership agreement, I consider KJxx, xx,AKQJxx, x a good 4♦ bid.

I think you are wrong. a 6-4 hand without values outside of the two suits USUALLY does not qualify for 4♦. The hand in your example only qualifies for 3♠, because pd could have wasted values in ♥ and ♣ suits (Q, Js) (Qxxx, QJx, xx, Kxxx or even worse, xxxx, Kxx, x, Kxxx) not enough for game. When you bid 4♦ you are tell pd that as long as pd has 4 ♠s and ONE useful card (with "normal" distribution), you can make game.

[luis]

HeartA, on May 18 2005, 08:00 PM, said:

luis, on May 18 2005, 09:53 AM, said:

My ideal hand for 4♦ is a 6-4 hand without values in hearts or clubs. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe this needs a partnership agreement, I consider KJxx, xx,AKQJxx, x a good 4♦ bid.

I think you are wrong. a 6-4 hand without values outside of the two suits USUALLY does not qualify for 4♦. The hand in your example only qualifies for 3♠, because pd could have wasted values in black suits (Q, Js) (Qxxx, QJx, xx, Kxxx or even worse, xxxx, Kxx, x, Kxxx) not enough for game. When you bid 4♦ you are tell pd that as long as pd has 4 ♥s and ONE useful card (with "normal" distribution), you can make game.

I t depends on what you agree, if you can either have values in hearts Or clubs what does your pd do ? Flip a coin?

[HeartA]

luis, on May 18 2005, 03:08 PM, said:

I t depends on what you agree, if you can either have values in hearts Or clubs what does your pd do ? Flip a coin?

There were some typos in my post (messed up ♠ and ♥).

4♦ usually tells pd "please (RKC) blackwood, or cuebid or last train" if he has extra good cards.

[the hog]

With all due respects, I find it difficult to see how a 3H splinter is a sensible bid. Hannie for example says partner can discount H honours. Do you really want him to do this? Holding Axxxx QJxx xx Ax what slam would you like to be in, 6S, 6D or 6NT? 6S may make, but 6N or 6D are by far best.