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fouled board when is it too late

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2019-September-15, 03:28

This happened today.

Swiss teams, 6 rounds of 9 boards.
Scores posted, prizes handed out, then a player notices a fouled board on Round 4.
Hand records were freely available after each match.

The foul was the D7 and C5 swapped between West & North, at some stage in one set of boards. Played at 2 or 3 tables.
If that board is cancelled, 3rd & 4th would be swapped.

When does the director's ability to alter the score for that match expire?

Pleasant to report that the fouled board was pointed out by a player in the team that would drop from 3rd to 4th.
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#2 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2019-September-15, 07:31

View Postshevek, on 2019-September-15, 03:28, said:

This happened today.

Swiss teams, 6 rounds of 9 boards.
Scores posted, prizes handed out, then a player notices a fouled board on Round 4.
Hand records were freely available after each match.

The foul was the D7 and C5 swapped between West & North, at some stage in one set of boards. Played at 2 or 3 tables.
If that board is cancelled, 3rd & 4th would be swapped.

When does the director's ability to alter the score for that match expire?

Pleasant to report that the fouled board was pointed out by a player in the team that would drop from 3rd to 4th.

Law 81C Director’s Duties and Powers said:

3. to rectify an error or irregularity of which he becomes aware in any manner, within the periods established in accordance with Laws 79C and 92B.

Law 79C said:

Unless the Tournament Organizer specifies a later* time, this Correction Period expires 30 minutes after the official score has been made available for inspection.
*An earlier time may be specified when required by the special nature of a contest


(Law 92B concerns appeals)
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#3 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2019-September-15, 23:45

Thanks Pran.

It is not clear to me when the 30 minutes expire.
Given the lack of local Regs, is it 30 minutes after the conclusion of
- the EVENT?
- the current STAGE of the event?
- the SESSION?
- the MATCH?

This occurred in Match 4, after which the running results and hand records were available.
Then the 30 minutes would expire midway through Match 5.

Concerning 79C2, what is an appropriate amount of time to wait for scoring corrections?
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#4 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 01:53

View Postshevek, on 2019-September-15, 23:45, said:

Thanks Pran.

It is not clear to me when the 30 minutes expire.
Given the lack of local Regs, is it 30 minutes after the conclusion of
- the EVENT?
- the current STAGE of the event?
- the SESSION?
- the MATCH?

This occurred in Match 4, after which the running results and hand records were available.
Then the 30 minutes would expire midway through Match 5.

Concerning 79C2, what is an appropriate amount of time to wait for scoring corrections?

"The Correction Period expires 30 minutes after the official score has been made available for inspection."

In Norway the official scores are usually made available immediately after each round because we usually play barometer style where the same boards are played simultaneously at all tables during the same round with all results in that round being published once the last table has finished the round.

With other movements the official scores will hardly be available until a session is ended because the contestants must be able to inspect not only their own result in question but also other results on the same board(s).

And in the older days results might frequently not be available for inspection until they were published even days after the event.
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#5 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 07:24

In a typical EBU Swiss Teams tournament the correction period for errors of score entry or calculation by the players (e.g. entering "+2" instead of "+1" in the bridgemate) expires 20 minutes after the score has been made available for inspection. (Law 79C1 says this cannot be shorter than 30 minutes unless required by the special nature of the contest, but that's another matter.) These days the scores are normally uploaded to a website or shown on a screen at the venue as soon as they are calculated, but even if they aren't, the director will be happy to print off check slips or personal score records on request. This counts as making the scores available, even if half the players have left the venue as soon as the last card is played and don't avail themselves of the opportunity.

The White Book of EBU regulations (section 2.5.1) states that this 20 minute (or 30 minute - in any case, the shorter correction period) applies to fouled boards. There is a longer correction period, which would typically be 48 hours or so, which applies to errors by the TD or scorer (e.g. the TD calculated a score adjustment correctly but made a mistake when entering it in the scoring programme).

Of course, you don't have to follow EBU regulations elsewhere in the world, but it gives you an idea of how some national authorities regulate these matters.

There are some contests where the shorter correction period would apply to the session rather than the event, providing the players have 20 minutes non-playing time to check the scores.

Even though the shorter correction period specifically mentions fouled boards, in your case I think the director could apply the longer correction period (with the approval of the tournament organizer) if they were satisfied that the facts you presented were correct, that the two cards were swapped in one set of boards, and that it was played in a different state at the two tables. This would require corroboration from the other team, or evidence from inspection of the boards themselves, to ensure that it is beyond reasonable doubt. This seems to be covered by law 79C2.
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Posted 2019-September-16, 08:45

View PostVixTD, on 2019-September-16, 07:24, said:

In a typical EBU Swiss Teams tournament the correction period for errors of score entry or calculation by the players (e.g. entering "+2" instead of "+1" in the bridgemate) expires 20 minutes after the score has been made available for inspection. (Law 79C1 says this cannot be shorter than 30 minutes unless required by the special nature of the contest, but that's another matter.) These days the scores are normally uploaded to a website or shown on a screen at the venue as soon as they are calculated, but even if they aren't, the director will be happy to print off check slips or personal score records on request. This counts as making the scores available, even if half the players have left the venue as soon as the last card is played and don't avail themselves of the opportunity.

The White Book of EBU regulations (section 2.5.1) states that this 20 minute (or 30 minute - in any case, the shorter correction period) applies to fouled boards. There is a longer correction period, which would typically be 48 hours or so, which applies to errors by the TD or scorer (e.g. the TD calculated a score adjustment correctly but made a mistake when entering it in the scoring programme).

Of course, you don't have to follow EBU regulations elsewhere in the world, but it gives you an idea of how some national authorities regulate these matters.



As a reference from another RA, in Italy the correction period is 30 minutes after the official score, unless the need for correction was immediately obvious in which case 15 minutes only. In case of Director Error is it considerably longer (several days) as specified in the Tournament Rules.
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#7 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 09:35

View Postshevek, on 2019-September-15, 23:45, said:

Thanks Pran.

It is not clear to me when the 30 minutes expire.
Given the lack of local Regs, is it 30 minutes after the conclusion of
- the EVENT?
- the current STAGE of the event?
- the SESSION?
- the MATCH?

This occurred in Match 4, after which the running results and hand records were available.
Then the 30 minutes would expire midway through Match 5.

Concerning 79C2, what is an appropriate amount of time to wait for scoring corrections?

It may depend on whether running results are considered the "official score". The organizer might consider them to be tentative, and only the final results are official.

In a multi-session event, they might consider the results at the end of each session to be official, but not intermediate results.

#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 09:38

View Postpran, on 2019-September-16, 01:53, said:

In Norway the official scores are usually made available immediately after each round because we usually play barometer style where the same boards are played simultaneously at all tables during the same round with all results in that round being published once the last table has finished the round.

Is it possible to play Swiss Teams without barometer scoring? Pairing for a round is based on the scores from the previous round (although in the days before computer pairing, we sometimes did it based on 2 rounds ago, so we wouldn't have to wait so long between rounds).

#9 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 13:29

View Postbarmar, on 2019-September-16, 09:35, said:

It may depend on whether running results are considered the "official score". The organizer might consider them to be tentative, and only the final results are official.

That's a problem that the rules and some scorekeeping programs do not seem to contemplate in these days of electronic displays. My rough and ready solution is to leave open a wordpad window saying "not yet official", but it would be much better if this status was integrated in the scorekeeping program and related display.
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#10 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 15:32

View Postbarmar, on 2019-September-16, 09:35, said:

It may depend on whether running results are considered the "official score". The organizer might consider them to be tentative, and only the final results are official.

In a multi-session event, they might consider the results at the end of each session to be official, but not intermediate results.

When we use Bridgemate for entering contract, lead and results for each board and have the computer program produce complete reports (usually on paper) immediately at end of each round, we certainly consider these reports to be official scores.
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#11 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-September-16, 16:31

View PostVixTD, on 2019-September-16, 07:24, said:

In a typical EBU Swiss Teams tournament the correction period for errors of score entry or calculation by the players (e.g. entering "+2" instead of "+1" in the bridgemate) expires 20 minutes after the score has been made available for inspection. (Law 79C1 says this cannot be shorter than 30 minutes unless required by the special nature of the contest, but that's another matter.) These days the scores are normally uploaded to a website or shown on a screen at the venue as soon as they are calculated, but even if they aren't, the director will be happy to print off check slips or personal score records on request. This counts as making the scores available, even if half the players have left the venue as soon as the last card is played and don't avail themselves of the opportunity.

The White Book of EBU regulations (section 2.5.1) states that this 20 minute (or 30 minute - in any case, the shorter correction period) applies to fouled boards. There is a longer correction period, which would typically be 48 hours or so, which applies to errors by the TD or scorer (e.g. the TD calculated a score adjustment correctly but made a mistake when entering it in the scoring programme).

Of course, you don't have to follow EBU regulations elsewhere in the world, but it gives you an idea of how some national authorities regulate these matters.

There are some contests where the shorter correction period would apply to the session rather than the event, providing the players have 20 minutes non-playing time to check the scores.

Even though the shorter correction period specifically mentions fouled boards, in your case I think the director could apply the longer correction period (with the approval of the tournament organizer) if they were satisfied that the facts you presented were correct, that the two cards were swapped in one set of boards, and that it was played in a different state at the two tables. This would require corroboration from the other team, or evidence from inspection of the boards themselves, to ensure that it is beyond reasonable doubt. This seems to be covered by law 79C2.


Are you suggesting that the correction period can expire before hand records are made available? How is the person able to determine that the board was fouled?)
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#12 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 04:49

View PostVixTD, on 2019-September-16, 07:24, said:


Even though the shorter correction period specifically mentions fouled boards, in your case I think the director could apply the longer correction period (with the approval of the tournament organizer) if they were satisfied that the facts you presented were correct, that the two cards were swapped in one set of boards, and that it was played in a different state at the two tables. This would require corroboration from the other team, or evidence from inspection of the boards themselves, to ensure that it is beyond reasonable doubt. This seems to be covered by law 79C2.


This is indeed what happened. No player errors. After re-checking the hand recs at the end of the event, a player noticed a minor but critical mis-boarding of a hand played by the room an hour ago. As director, I found the board among the pile of six duplicated sets and confirmed his suspicions. I was able to infer - but not confirm - that the board was played that way - fouled at one table - in two other matches.

The Australian Bridge Federations has 79C2 Regulations. For their events, (I think) you can go back one match but not two. So the players would have to pick up the fouled board from Match 4 before the start of Match 6. it is clear that you need some cut-off. Can't have somebody coming up to me in a month's time.

So, how is 79C2 interpreted around the world?
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#13 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 07:33

View PostVampyr, on 2019-September-16, 16:31, said:

Are you suggesting that the correction period can expire before hand records are made available? How is the person able to determine that the board was fouled?)

Not these days, although of course it used to be the norm for final results to be posted without hand records, in the days before duplimated boards.

I can't think of any instance when the results would be published without making hand records available. The reason I would include this error under law 79C2 is that it is a minor error that would not be immediately apparent without seeing the hand records (unlike, for instance, a misboarding in which complete hands had been swapped round). Some revokes could also fall into this category. The director would have to be sure of the facts, though, and not just take one side's word for it.
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#14 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-September-17, 09:06

Electronic scoring can help with fouled board detection. Some ESD software can be configured to check whether a result seems sensible with the actual hands, and it will alert the TD who can investigate. This usually catches scoring errors (e.g. entering the wrong denomination or declarer), but it would also catch a fouled board, and not rely on the players to compare the hand record with their memory.

In the US, team tournaments are still mostly played with hand-dealt boards, so no hand records, and electronic scoring devices are also rare. The TD still enters the score by hand into ACBLScore, and they're hand-entered into a sheet on the wall. NABCs have occasionally experimented with automated systems for Swiss teams, but it still hasn't gone into regular use.

#15 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 06:24

View Postbarmar, on 2019-September-17, 09:06, said:

In the US, team tournaments are still mostly played with hand-dealt boards, so no hand records, and electronic scoring devices are also rare. The TD still enters the score by hand into ACBLScore, and they're hand-entered into a sheet on the wall. NABCs have occasionally experimented with automated systems for Swiss teams, but it still hasn't gone into regular use.


Using win-loss scoring results in less accurate pairings than Victory Points.
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#16 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 08:43

View PostVampyr, on 2019-September-18, 06:24, said:

Using win-loss scoring results in less accurate pairings than Victory Points.

We haven't used win-loss scoring in ages. ACBLScore converts IMPs to VPs for the TD.

#17 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-September-18, 17:18

View Postbarmar, on 2019-September-18, 08:43, said:

We haven't used win-loss scoring in ages. ACBLScore converts IMPs to VPs for the TD.


How can you do that when teams are playing differently hands?
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-September-19, 09:37

View PostVampyr, on 2019-September-18, 17:18, said:

How can you do that when teams are playing differently hands?

Why is win/loss any better for that?

Either you care whether all the matches are playing the same boards or not. For practicality, we don't, and assume that in the long run things will even out.

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Posted 2019-September-19, 13:42

View PostVampyr, on 2019-September-16, 16:31, said:

Are you suggesting that the correction period can expire before hand records are made available? How is the person able to determine that the board was fouled?)


EBU Correction Period for Swiss Events
ref White Book 2.5 (and 8.80.6.1 (a): for definition of session for Swiss events)

The correction period for rulings expires after 20 minutes of non-playing time after the match, which means 20 minutes into the next major break or at the end of the event. Rulings excludes rulings on fouled boards.

The same limit applies to score corrections and rulings on fouled boards, except for the last match of the event.

For score corrections and ruling on fouled boards for the last match of the event, the correction period expires two working days after the event.
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#20 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-September-20, 08:44

Of course in EBULand we could have the situation of there being a mismatch in the next round as a result of the fouled board. Great fun, as we may have to amend the VPs in round 5 etc....
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
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