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4-5-2-2 Hands-- opener's rebid after INT forcing response

#1 User is offline   profhsg 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 08:15

Playing five card majors a 2/1 game forcing and a 1NT forcing system. You hold a minimum opening hand 11-15 HCP with 4-5 and 2-2 in the minor suits. E.g., K J x x , A 10 x x x , A x , x x . You open the bidding with 1. LHO passes and partner bids 1NT forcing. RHO passes. What's your rebid? A 2 rebid is totally out of the question since you have nowhere near the values for a reverse. That leaves a bid in one of your two card minors or a rebid of your somewhat dodgy five card heart as your only choices. The few sources I've found discussing the hand seem to opt for the former. Somehow I feel uncomfortable doing that. [BTW under U.S. ACBL rules does that mean you must alert opponents that a minor suit rebid after a 1 opening and a 1NT forcing response may be made on as few as 2 cards in the suit?] Is there anything to be said for rebidding the hearts as the lesser of two lies?

Thanks

PS I'm new to these forums so if there's a better section in which to post this, please let me know.
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#2 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 08:38

Don't forget that PASS is an option.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
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#3 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 11:04

This is something you need to think about BEFORE you open. If it's a dodgy 4522 in which you really don't want to rebid the heart suit, seriously consider passing instead of opening. If it's an opening hand, then if you have a quality heart suit, then consider rebidding it. Be prepared to play in 3h or 4h on a 5/2 fit. Otherwise, bid 2c. Personally, there are 2 occasions I've done this when I've actually had to play in clubs. Both times, it was correct to do it. One time my partner had 5 clubs and passed 2c, the other time they had 6 and raised to 3. This is a small sample size, admittedly, but playing in clubs is not necessarily a disaster.

If these kinds of things still bother you, there are ways to deal with it that involves adding a new convention to your bidding. The Flannery convention solves this problem, but it does it at the expense of whatever you are using the 2d bid for now. Something I recently discovered is the Kaplan Interchange. It involves responder switching the meaning between 1s and 1n after partner opens 1h. If we open 1h-p-? 1s showes 0-4 spades and is treated as if partner had made a forcing 1n bid. If opener has 4 spades, they rebid 1n showing 45?? shape, so you will be able to find 4/4 spade fits. If opener opens 1h-p-? and you bid 1n, that will show 5+ spades and is forcing 1 round. The KI convention is a little hard to get used to, but is very effective.

There may be other conventions out there, but those are the 2 I know of to correct this problem.

P.S. This might be better placed in the Intermediate/Advanced section.
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#4 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 12:48

Rebidding 2 after a forcing 1NT response is absolutely standard. If your 5 card heart suit was really good, you might rebid 2 although partner would expect 6 hearts.

The ACBL alert procedures says:

Quote

Opener’s rebid of two of a minor over partner’s forcing or semi-forcing notrump
response to a major does not require an Alert if it shows three or more of the suit bid (4-
5-2-2 does not require an Alert as long as responder expects three or more cards in the
minor).

So 4=5=2=2 is specifically addressed and does not require an alert.
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#5 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 12:54

Using a 2 bid as Flannery 54 11-15(16) is viable, with a Multi 2 to show the weak 2/2 bids and other distributional hands, and a 2 bid as a weak 5-5 minors is an option. Obviously you lose a weak 2 opener from your repertoire, but a weak 2 is the easiest pre-empt to counter. Even a weak 1NT (12-14) poses more problems than a weak 2 opener is my humble opinion.
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#6 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 13:53

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-August-17, 12:54, said:

Using a 2 bid as Flannery 54 11-15(16) is viable, with a Multi 2 to show the weak 2/2 bids and other distributional hands, and a 2 bid as a weak 5-5 minors is an option. Obviously you lose a weak 2 opener from your repertoire, but a weak 2 is the easiest pre-empt to counter. Even a weak 1NT (12-14) poses more problems than a weak 2 opener is my humble opinion.


I think that a Multi is legal only in a limited number ACBL events, and that these are not always available. You could, of course, apply to the local club to allow it, which I imagine they will if you supply a defense.

I do disagree with the poster above, as I have found that the pre-emptive value of a weak 2 is far from negligible. And of course with a Multi you lose when you open it, so I would need a VERY good use for the 2 and 2 openings to switch to a Multi, Lucas Twos are very popular, largely because they are probably the best alternative.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#7 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 00:15

I know I shouldn't say this but sometimes if stuck for a bid like that playing 5 card majors I will occasionally open the 4-card major then rebid the 5-card one. It can be risky sometimes ending in 4-3 fits in part scores so you have to judge it well and hope that nobody gets upset at you doing it :) But one of many things I was taught when learning bridge that before you open the bidding you need to have a plan formulated for your rebid. I find 5-card majors a bit restrictive sometimes :)
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#8 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 00:40

View Postthepossum, on 2019-August-18, 00:15, said:

I know I shouldn't say this but sometimes if stuck for a bid like that playing 5 card majors I will occasionally open the 4-card major then rebid the 5-card one. It can be risky sometimes ending in 4-3 fits in part scores so you have to judge it well and hope that nobody gets upset at you doing it :) But one of many things I was taught when learning bridge that before you open the bidding you need to have a plan formulated for your rebid.

It's definitely a valid approach opening the shorter *minor* with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs, when you might be stuck for a rebid otherwise (some don't like it, some do).

But I don't think it's possible to do anything *but* backfire when you have 5 hearts and 4 spades.

If partner has 4 spades, you have nothing to worry about by opening 1 (partner will respond 1, and you raise).

If partner has 3 spades, you're guaranteed to be in a 4-3 fit, while everyone else will find 8 and 9 card heart fits, or be in no trumps.

If partner has 2 spades, you'll actually be in a 4-2 fit, when others may be in a 5-3 heart fit, since partner will keep giving preference to spades.

Bidding a 2 card club suit rarely causes problems.
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#9 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 00:46

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-18, 00:40, said:

It's definitely a valid approach opening the shorter *minor* with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs, when you might be stuck for a rebid otherwise (some don't like it, some do).

But I don't think it's possible to do anything *but* backfire when you have 5 hearts and 4 spades.

If partner has 4 spades, you have nothing to worry about by opening 1 (partner will respond 1, and you raise).

If partner has 3 spades, you're virtually guaranteed to be in a 4-3 fit and getting a bottom score, while everyone else will find 8 and 9 card heart fits, or be in no trumps.

If partner has 2 spades, you'll actually be in a 4-2 fit, when others may be in a 5-3 heart fit, since partner will keep giving preference to spades.

Bidding a 2 card club suit rarely causes problems.


Thats all so contrived to get around the limitations of 5 card majors. Bidding a 2 card minor with nothing in it is much worse and more misleading that my approach :)

PS Sometimes I would consider an opening pass if there is no good rebid :)
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#10 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 00:56

View Postthepossum, on 2019-August-18, 00:46, said:

Bidding a 2 card minor with nothing in it is much worse and more misleading that my approach :)

Why is that? Partner knows your minor could be short, and will always put you back in your major when possible, eg with 2 cards in the major and 4 cards in the minor, so you find the right contract.

If you open the wrong major, partner will *always* put you in the wrong contract - if you're lucky, the best you can hope for is being in the same contract the standard bidders got to.

Of course, if you're playing a system that doesn't promise 5 card majors, that's completely separate.
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#11 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 01:38

I would never bid a useless 2 card suit ever and bidding spades foloowed by hearts is not misleading about the strength of my hand and accurately describes the hand as a 2 major hand. Do you think everyone accurately bids every single bid. You have to be a little flexible sometimes to avoid misleading partner and opponents. Some of the rubbish I read about how to get around the limitations of 5 card majors is terrible and the attitude especially from people who dont seem to care about misleading their opponents in much worse ways

I should have added that once with a rubbish 4522 hand and 11-12 points I opened 2 of the 5 card major, only once though. :)

And I also once or twice have manufactured a reverse on a strong 5422 hand

Bridge, in my book and most players book is about accurately describing your hand, or as accurately as possible in terms of strength and shape. That sometimes means occasional flexibility in number of cards (maybe 1 sometimes) or number of points ( afew sometimes). You also have to consider losers in assessing the strength of your hand. There is far too uch obsession with points in assessing strength, and not the distribution and nature of the points.

I will always (with the very occasional psych) accurately describe my hand to partner and opponents unlike many players who happily and regularly bid misleading bids/unusual conventions to mislead the defence and also teach that to beginners. That is not how to teach people to play bridge and make good contracts, or to be fair to the defence.
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#12 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 03:22

How is making a bid that promises nothing more than 2 clubs - are both partner and opponents know this - misleading, but making a bid which promises 5 cards when you have 4 not misleading?

Have no issues with breaking rules when it leads to a better result, but in this case I can only think of hands where it makes things worse - all of the ones listed above. But if it works for you, great. Will happily play against it :)
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#13 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 05:28

View Postthepossum, on 2019-August-18, 01:38, said:

.. That sometimes means occasional flexibility in number of cards (maybe 1 sometimes) ..

That's fine if you are not playing 5 card majors, or you enjoy playing in a 4-2 fit. I do not the latter, so I do the former.
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#14 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 07:24

Nobody has mentioned Kaplan Inversion/Granviville. The version I learned: 1-1NT shows five+ spades, while 1-1 is a forcing no trump hand with 0-4 spades. 1-1-1NT shows 4=5 majors and less than reversing values. Opener never rebids a two-card minor or a five-card heart suit. Doesn't waste the 2 opener like Flannery.
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 07:44

View Postmikestar13, on 2019-August-18, 07:24, said:

Nobody has mentioned Kaplan Inversion/Granviville.

Yes they have, see post #3 by hardvector.

Nobody has explicitly mentioned the alternative of playing 1NT semi-forcing, which is Bridge World Standard since 2001. You can have your 2/1 cake and eat it by passing with hands like the example here.
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#16 User is offline   fluff 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 08:51

hi all,

My partner and I found an interesting little treatment to take care of the rebid with 4522.
Responder bids 1♠ with 3 cards and opener now has no rebid problem. With 4♠​, he supports to necessary level.
With 4 card support and a raise to 4♠​, we rebid 3nt to show 4 card support and 18+.
The sequence 1♥ 1♠; 4♠​ shows 56xx.
And now, one additional advantage, opener can play 1nt :)

bernard Fluff
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#17 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 09:37

The problem is 2/1 GF and 1N F1
I know people swear by it and bridge teachers love it and generally it is good when partner finds a 2/1 bid. (Not always)
If you really like it you must live with the consequences, personally I cannot stomach being forced to bid over 1N
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 10:35

View Postnekthen, on 2019-August-18, 09:37, said:

The problem is 2/1 GF and 1N F1
I know people swear by it and bridge teachers love it and generally it is good when partner finds a 2/1 bid. (Not always)
If you really like it you must live with the consequences, personally I cannot stomach being forced to bid over 1N


So play 2/1 GF and 1N semi-forcing, as is now standard.
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#19 User is offline   jdulmage 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 10:54

Play Flannery or use 2 club response as "could be short"
Visit our website today at http://www.reginabridge.com for information on loads of conventions, our local club, and bridge hands.
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#20 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 12:54

Sir.With due respect to Vampyr it is my experience that against good opponents a weak 2D opening is simply of no use as a preemptive bid.If opps have one or both majors they WILL bid and outbid you. A weak 2D serves just the purpose of informing partner of a possible sacrifice or if he is short in D then a possible double of opponents major suit contract..Since the 1NT response ,in the present case,is forcing the easiest rebid ON THE GIVEN HAND is 2C.However one can get various combinations os say a 15 HCP hand with all the HCP in the majors in a 4-5-2-2 hand, Even then the rebid is 2C.One knows for sure that responder does not have 4 cards in S and 2C guarantees only 2+ cards in clubs suit.
With some of my partners I play FLANNERY 2D for such hands.I personally do not know for certain if a convention like GAZZILLI can be useful since I have not studied it in details.
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