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Jacoby transfer then new suit: no way to show double fit 1N-2D; 2H-3C: now opener has NO rebid with double fit H+C

#1 User is offline   aleaxit 

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Posted 2019-August-11, 10:25

In the very common sequence where I open 1NT and my bot partner transfers with, say, 2, and on my acceptance rebids, say, 3, I not rarely am sitting there in the nice position of having a double fit, i.e., 4 cards in , 3 or 4 in . The weird thing about the robot's system is that there is no possible rebid for this opener hand -- every single rebid by opener (try hovering on each and every one to check) is specified as showing either exactly 2 cards in , or less than 4 cards in .

So, in this situation, as opener, the alleged "system" forces me to lie. I usually lie about the fit, of course, denying it even when it's as good as, say, KQJ10 -- the risk of missing a game in , particularly at matchpoints, makes lying by denying the fit too horrible to contemplate. But this does cause good slams on 4-4 fits to be missed, and it's not unusual for the slam to not be there in , as the 5-3 fit doesn't play quite as well.

Why have a system that mandates lying, when it's so easy to fix the problem? There are opener rebids which are assigned pretty useless meanings (such as, showing a side suit responder is hardly likely to be interested about, instead of focusing on responder's suits) which could be easily re-purposed to specifically show the double fit; or, at least, make one rebid showing one fit not necessarily deny the other one.

This is just one case where the robot's "system" can force lies; for example, there are many sequences where, say, a bid of 3 shows playable , while 4 is a control bid denying the Ace of -- so one is completely stuck with a hand worthy of a control bid but so "unlucky" as to hold both black Aces (!). And so on, and so forth. Could maybe a mechanism be put in place to allow "crowd-sourcing" of fixes to such system vagaries? I sure would not mind volunteering time and effort to suggesting tweaks and solutions for such sequences!
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2019-August-11, 14:32

#1 rule of GIB is never try to get to a secondary fit. It just isn't going to happen.

Well, maybe #2 behind "all doubles are for takeout".
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-11, 15:09

View PostTylerE, on 2019-August-11, 14:32, said:

#1 rule of GIB is never try to get to a secondary fit. It just isn't going to happen.

Well, maybe #2 behind "all doubles are for takeout".


In these two respects at least I would defend GIB, both seem in line with mainstream modern bidding (if the primary fit is a major). And maybe I play too much MP, but if I have found a secondary fit after Jacoby transfer I rarely feel the urge to be able to show it. It could be done if sufficiently disciplined, but then you could always use the same artificial bid as a control-bid fixing the major, or some other slam-related bid. And the information about double fit might well help opponents more than partner anyway. It seems more practical to me that a raise of the secondary suit shows 4-card support and denies 3-card support of the primary suit.
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#4 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-August-11, 18:33

View Postpescetom, on 2019-August-11, 15:09, said:

It seems more practical to me that a raise of the secondary suit shows 4-card support and denies 3-card support of the primary suit.


Bypassing 3NT with only doubleton major suit support seems particularly unsound.
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#5 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-11, 18:52

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-11, 18:33, said:

Bypassing 3NT with only doubleton major suit support seems particularly unsound.

I thought responder bidding a new minor is meant to specifically say "I'm happy to bypass 3NT if you have 4 card support".
Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
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#6 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-August-11, 19:28

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-11, 18:33, said:

Bypassing 3NT with only doubleton major suit support seems particularly unsound.


Agreed. I've recently been convinced that a raise of the second suit should guarantee a fit in both suits. You can return to the first suit with three-card support or cue with support just for the second suit.

Knowing about the double fit can be really important in slam auctions, either positively (in counting tricks) or negatively (in having to consider a third round loser in the first suit).
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