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how to bid this

#1 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 16:10


West declare
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#2 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 20:33

View Postcencio, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:


West declare

You didn't give any vulnerability, but on this hand, I don't think it matters. South's bidding is easier if NS is vulnerable and north is disciplined.

1c-1h-p-1s-p-2h-p-3d-p-?

I'd probably pass here, but I'm a pessimist. I think 5d depends on perfect cards and is a bit lucky.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 22:50

Depends on your agreements about responding to overcalls. Assuming that 1 by S would be nonforcing, they might bid
1-2
3-3
4-pass

but it is too easy when seeing all four hands. In practice I might do something less succesful, for example bidding 3NT instead of 4 with the North hand.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#4 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 00:09

Hard to say as guessing is involved- but one sequence would be to bid 4 and then pass over 4 once it is seen that the heart queen is a valuable, working card opposite the expected 6-4 hand.
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 00:35

Also depends where you are, whether W opens 1 or 1N.

It's easy over 1N and if you play a 2 suited defence, so that a 2 overcall followed by 3 is clearly 6-4.
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#6 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 10:33


Cencio
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
South can make a lucky 6 but it's hard enough to contrive a plausible auction to 4by North.

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#7 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 12:00

Doesn't seem particularly hard. West opens 1C and then:

1H 2S(1)
3H 4H

(1) 1S in most methods is NF and only shows 9+ or so. 2S is non-forcing but highly invitational, generally showing 14+ or so and a good six-bagger.

And no, 6H is not cold. A diamond lead sets it two tricks.

Cheers,
Mike
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#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 13:21

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-July-25, 12:00, said:

Doesn't seem particularly hard. West opens 1C and then:

1H 2S(1)
3H 4H

(1) 1S in most methods is NF and only shows 9+ or so. 2S is non-forcing but highly invitational, generally showing 14+ or so and a good six-bagger.

And no, 6H is not cold. A diamond lead sets it two tricks.

Cheers,
Mike


He never claimed 6(N) was cold, he claimed it was cold if played by south.

Many people play 2 as fit so your method is far from universal.
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#9 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 17:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-25, 13:21, said:

He never claimed 6(N) was cold, he claimed it was cold if played by south.

Many people play 2 as fit so your method is far from universal.


Not sure I know anyone that plays a jump to 2S over a 1H overcall as a fit jump. Maybe that's a British thing? But what's the point of the bid? If you have a fit in hearts with a good hand, just cue-bid to show a limit raise or better and go from there. Why do you need to go trying to find another fit? Fit jumps are only really useful in response to 1 of a minor.

You need a bid that shows a good hand with spades.

Cheers,
Mike
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 02:32

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-July-25, 17:15, said:

Not sure I know anyone that plays a jump to 2S over a 1H overcall as a fit jump. Maybe that's a British thing? But what's the point of the bid? If you have a fit in hearts with a good hand, just cue-bid to show a limit raise or better and go from there. Why do you need to go trying to find another fit? Fit jumps are only really useful in response to 1 of a minor.

You need a bid that shows a good hand with spades.

Cheers,
Mike


We actually don't because our overcalls are sounder than most so 1 is forcing (we weak jump on air). The reason for playing 2 as fit is to allow partner to judge when opener rebids an unpleasantly large number of clubs. KJxxx, Kxxx, xxx, x would be typical so that partner knows whether to bid over 4 or 5.
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#11 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 02:36

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 02:32, said:

We actually don't because our overcalls are sounder than most so 1 is forcing (we weak jump on air). The reason for playing 2 as fit is to allow partner to judge when opener rebids an unpleasantly large number of clubs. KJxxx, Kxxx, xxx, x would be typical so that partner knows whether to bid over 4 or 5.


If you play 1S as forcing, then you can indeed use 2S as "something else." The modern style is to play that after an overcall, only a cue-bid is forcing.

Cheers,
mike
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 03:45

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-July-26, 02:36, said:

If you play 1S as forcing, then you can indeed use 2S as "something else." The modern style is to play that after an overcall, only a cue-bid is forcing.

Cheers,
mike


Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1)-1-2 as NF
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#13 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 04:39

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 03:45, said:

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1)-1-2 as NF

For me it's constructive and does not deny invitational values, but NF. Only the cue is forcing.
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 05:33

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-26, 04:39, said:

For me it's constructive and does not deny invitational values, but NF. Only the cue is forcing.


Wow so (1)-1-(P)-2-(5) and you may never get to bid your heart suit with just shy of a 3 bid (or you'll bid it and find you have a choice of 5/6-1 spade fit or 5/6-0 heart fit at the 5 level).
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#15 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 06:53

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 05:33, said:

Wow so (1)-1-(P)-2-(5) and you may never get to bid your heart suit with just shy of a 3 bid (or you'll bid it and find you have a choice of 5/6-1 spade fit or 5/6-0 heart fit at the 5 level).


It doesn't look like it will necessarily be a tragedy, in any case it's easy to construct a non-ideal auction for any agreement.
This agreement I think is pretty standard, I was taught it as part of basic 2/1 and I see that Bridge World Standard 2017 says much the same too:

C. After Our Suit Overcall of a One-Bid
After our simple overcall of a one-bid:
(a) A new-suit bid by an unpassed advancer is natural and nonforcing, constructive if an advance of a two-level overcall. (Then: a cue-bid by intervenor is artificial and neither shows nor denies a primary fit for advancer's suit.) A new-suit jump is invitational.
(b) A cue-bid may be either a strong raise or a prelude to a forcing bid in a new suit (but a passed-hand cue-bid guarantees a fit for intervenor's suit). A jump cue-bid is a mixed (i.e., semipreemptive) raise that shows at least one defensive trick.

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#16 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 08:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 03:45, said:

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1)-1-2 as NF


Transfers work well here:
1-1-2 = diamonds
1-1-2 = hearts
1-1-2 = invitational spade raise (UCB type)
1-1-2 = Competing
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#17 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 13:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 03:45, said:

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1)-1-2 as NF


You misunderstood me. I don't mean NF by responder. I mean NF by advancer.

1C (1S) 2H

Of course this is forcing.

(1C) 1S pass 2H

The modern trend in the USA is to play this non-forcing. The same goes for

(1C) 1H pass 1S

Cheers,
Mike
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#18 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 14:14

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-July-26, 13:18, said:

You misunderstood me. I don't mean NF by responder. I mean NF by advancer.

1C (1S) 2H

Of course this is forcing.

(1C) 1S pass 2H

The modern trend in the USA is to play this non-forcing. The same goes for

(1C) 1H pass 1S

Cheers,
Mike


No I didn't misunderstand you, only the 1 is in brackets in my post, I also meant 1-1-P-2, you make constructive bidding almost impossible if opener barrages if you can't start with 2 forcing. I can see why you might want the 1 level auction to be NF, but a 2/1 is going to promise good values, so unless you overcall on absolute manure playing it forcing seems better.
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#19 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 16:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 14:14, said:

No I didn't misunderstand you, only the 1 is in brackets in my post, I also meant 1-1-P-2, you make constructive bidding almost impossible if opener barrages if you can't start with 2 forcing. I can see why you might want the 1 level auction to be NF, but a 2/1 is going to promise good values, so unless you overcall on absolute manure playing it forcing seems better.


The modern trend is decidedly non-forcing. There are some top-level players that still play one level responses to overcalls as forcing (although the majority play those non-forcing, too), but very few play 2-level responses to overcalls as forcing. If a 2-level response is forcing, then what do you do here:

(1C) 1S p ??

x xxx AKxxxx xxx

Don't you want to be able to bid 2D and have partner pass? Sure you do. If partner has to bid on with even a halfway decent overcall like:

AKxxx Qxx x QTxx

you are going to be in deep doo-doo pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Mike
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#20 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 16:36

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-July-26, 16:18, said:

The modern trend is decidedly non-forcing. There are some top-level players that still play one level responses to overcalls as forcing (although the majority play those non-forcing, too), but very few play 2-level responses to overcalls as forcing. If a 2-level response is forcing, then what do you do here:

(1C) 1S p ??

x xxx AKxxxx xxx

Don't you want to be able to bid 2D and have partner pass? Sure you do. If partner has to bid on with even a halfway decent overcall like:

AKxxx Qxx x QTxx

you are going to be in deep doo-doo pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Mike


I bid 1N, he bids 2 (particularly if the club is potentially short) and I bid 2 end of auction no issues. If the club is not potentially short we might play a filthy 1N but you're probably not making 2 either.
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