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Do you alert cue bids (Michaels, UCB etc)

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 01:03

Under EBU regulations, are cue bids such as Michaels, UCB and Cue Bid Raises alertable? I can't find anything in EBU sources that specifically says so, but I have read somewhere in a US publication that the Unusual 2NT is alertable but its 'sister' Michaels, is not, which seems slightly odd. Maybe it's because although a cue bid is artificial it is so obviously unnatural that opponents can ask, whereas the 2NT overcall could well be natural.
If the UCB is not alertable, does it need to be shown on a convention card (we are not yet playing at a level where convention cards are used but we have one anyway)
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#2 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 01:16

In the US, unusual nt is not alerted and cuebids are not alerted. By definition, a cuebid is something the opponents should be asking about if they have any interest in the meaning.
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#3 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 02:19

EBU bidding regulations are provided in "The Blue Book" Link to Blue Book

All calls (that are not announceable) that are not natural by agreement or have a potential unexpected meaning below 3NT (together with suit calls above 3NT in the first round of the auction and lead directing doubles (that do not suggestthe suit being doubled is led)) are alertable.

So Michaels, UCB, UNT and cue-bid raises are alertable. Opponents have the right to assume that a call that is not alerted is natural by agreement -however players are also expected to protect themselves if a call that could well be non-natural isn't alerted when it should be. (Provided they can do ths without giving UI or waking the opponents up)

All conventions should be on the system card. Even if they have a reognised name, a brief description of what the call means must be provided. The EBU 20b card is the recommended one to complete Word version

On the card there is specidic areas for "2NT" - both in direct and protective position, as well as cue bids. I would expect to see something like

2NT Direct: Unusual :5+ 5+ in lowest two suits 6-11 points
Protective: 18-20 (pseudo) Balanced, conventional responses same as 2NT opening bid

Cue Bid: Michaels: over Minor - Majors, Over Major = other Major + unspec. minor 6-11

If you need to remove any words then the words to remove are "Unusual" and "Michaels"
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 13:25

View Postweejonnie, on 2019-July-24, 02:19, said:

If you need to remove any words then the words to remove are "Unusual" and "Michaels"


I endorse this and deprecate the choice of ACBL to consider such bidding non-alertable. Coherently, I deprecate the choice of most RAs to announce "Stayman" rather than "Majors Ask" or something similar. Conventions are conventions and they should be described not named.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 16:10

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-24, 13:25, said:

I endorse this and deprecate the choice of ACBL to consider such bidding non-alertable. Coherently, I deprecate the choice of most RAs to announce "Stayman" rather than "Majors Ask" or something similar. Conventions are conventions and they should be described not named.


I don’t really care what the ACBL do; their system and alert regulations have long been known as the worst in the world, and I don’t expect that any improvement is likely anytime soon.

Here, the only thing announced by convention name is “Stayman”, and it seems OK since everyone knows what at least basic Stayman entails.

I have heard a rumour that there is no bridge at club level in Italy (alerts are not allowed). Is this true?

Edit: meant to say “psyches are not allowed”
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-July-24, 18:50

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:

I don’t really care what the ACBL do; their system and alert regulations have long been known as the worst in the world, and I don’t expect that any improvement is likely anytime soon.

I suppose my only quibble with that is that I don't know every RA's alert regulations, so I don't know if the statement is true - though it wouldn't surprise me if it is.

I was told in 2016 that the alert regulations were "under review" and new regs would be proposed to the BoD "ASAP". Three plus years later, and I haven't seen it yet. No idea what the problem is, except I suppose they held up while the new convention charts were being developed. However, those have been in place for what, seven or eight months now? :(
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 06:35

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:

I have heard a rumour that there is no bridge at club level in Italy (alerts are not allowed). Is this true?

Untrue, there is still bridge at club level and alerts are allowed B-)

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:

Edit: meant to say “psyches are not allowed”

True, at club level only.
But we already thrashed that to death in another thread.
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 06:49

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:

Here, the only thing announced by convention name is “Stayman”

Here too (together with "Puppet Stayman"), but it may still be the thin end of a wedge - see how many conventions are unalerted (and even unannounced) in ACBL.

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:

it seems OK since everyone knows what at least basic Stayman entails.

I'm opposed on principle to stating a convention name, it engenders confusion about the way agreements should be explained. And I don't think that everyone agrees on what basic Stayman entails either, at least around here - for some responder must have at least invitational strength, for some she must have at least one 4-card major, for some both of these and for others neither.
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 11:29

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-25, 06:35, said:

True, at club level only.
But we already thrashed that to death in another thread.


Maybe so, but there is no penalty that can be applied, so prohibiting psyches is pointless. Oh, wait, they are “misbids.”

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-25, 06:49, said:

I'm opposed on principle to stating a convention name, it engenders confusion about the way agreements should be explained. And I don't think that everyone agrees on what basic Stayman entails either, at least around here - for some responder must have at least invitational strength, for some she must have at least one 4-card major, for some both of these and for others neither.


And all of this should be announced when the opponents might not even care? If they do care they can ask.

In the EBU “Stayman” is announced if opener would show a major in response. Most of the time this is enough, and most of the time when there are questions they can wait until the face-down opening lead.
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-25, 13:07

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-25, 11:29, said:

Maybe so, but there is no penalty that can be applied, so prohibiting psyches is pointless. Oh, wait, they are “misbids.”

If the misstatement of strength/length is sufficiently gross and there is no credible alibi of genuine constructive intention then there is a penalty, and a fixed one too, albeit light. Claiming a misbid might escape the penalty, but not restituition of damage.

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-25, 11:29, said:

And all of this should be announced when the opponents might not even care? If they do care they can ask.

I agree with you that none of this should be announced, it would be a mess. The convention should be alerted and then explained only if asked, like any other convention.


View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-25, 11:29, said:

In the EBU “Stayman” is announced if opener would show a major in response. Most of the time this is enough, and most of the time when there are questions they can wait until the face-down opening lead.


In my Stayman, opener would only show a 5-card major, otherwise respond . Is that still announced as "Stayman" for EBU?
But that's an aside: I'm not against an announcement of that type, but I think it should be phrased in those terms, "Asks for major" or something similar.
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#11 User is offline   TMorris 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 08:57

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-25, 13:07, said:

If the misstatement of strength/length is sufficiently gross and there is no credible alibi of genuine constructive intention then there is a penalty, and a fixed one too, albeit light. Claiming a misbid might escape the penalty, but not restituition of damage.


I agree with you that none of this should be announced, it would be a mess. The convention should be alerted and then explained only if asked, like any other convention.




In my Stayman, opener would only show a 5-card major, otherwise respond . Is that still announced as "Stayman" for EBU?
But that's an aside: I'm not against an announcement of that type, but I think it should be phrased in those terms, "Asks for major" or something similar.


No, it is alerted in the EBU.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 09:07

View PostTMorris, on 2019-July-26, 08:57, said:

No, it is alerted in the EBU.

As I expected.
In Italy I can actually announce it as "Puppet Stayman", but then all the replies and developments need alerting anyway so it's hard to see what was gained.
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#13 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 13:25

In Norway (and I believe the same applies within the entire EBU,) a convention may be explained by its name if this is universally understood within the actual environment.
However the Director shall rule misinformation if it should appear that the players involved had different, however minute, understanding of the actual convention.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 17:27

View Postpran, on 2019-July-26, 13:25, said:

In Norway (and I believe the same applies within the entire EBU,) a convention may be explained by its name if this is universally understood within the actual environment.
However the Director shall rule misinformation if it should appear that the players involved had different, however minute, understanding of the actual convention.

Seems to me that makes it pretty dangerous to provide a convention's name as an explanation, unless you're absolutely certain that your opponents have the same understanding you do of that convention.

Since I'm never absolutely certain of anything, I would not do that.
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#15 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 18:57

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-July-24, 18:50, said:

I was told in 2016 that the alert regulations were "under review" and new regs would be proposed to the BoD "ASAP". Three plus years later, and I haven't seen it yet. No idea what the problem is, except I suppose they held up while the new convention charts were being developed. However, those have been in place for what, seven or eight months now? :(

It took a couple of years for the new convention charts, I'd expect it to take at least a year for the new alert procedure.

My expectation is that they're not really going to change the spirit, just make the document more precise -- the current alert procedure is very vague in many places. Maybe something in the style of the Blue Book.

#16 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 19:02

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-25, 06:49, said:

I'm opposed on principle to stating a convention name, it engenders confusion about the way agreements should be explained.

What would you prefer instead? Go back to the old days where the same "Alert" language was used for both unusual agreements and near-universal agreements like Stayman and Jacoby Transfers?

In ACBL we don't even alert Stayman (any form) if it's a non-jump club bid immediately over NT.

#17 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 19:04

View Postpran, on 2019-July-26, 13:25, said:

In Norway (and I believe the same applies within the entire EBU,) a convention may be explained by its name if this is universally understood within the actual environment.
However the Director shall rule misinformation if it should appear that the players involved had different, however minute, understanding of the actual convention.

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-July-26, 17:27, said:

Seems to me that makes it pretty dangerous to provide a convention's name as an explanation, unless you're absolutely certain that your opponents have the same understanding you do of that convention.

Since I'm never absolutely certain of anything, I would not do that.

Precisely.
And

Law 20F1 said:

During the auction and before the final pass any player may request, at his own turn to call, an explanation of the opponents’ auction. He is entitled to know about calls actually made, about relevant alternative calls available that were not made, and about inferences from the choice of action where these are matters of partnership understanding. [...]
is pretty "all inclusive" and cannot be limited by regulations.
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 19:12

If you don't agree on the meaning of words, it's not possible to communicate at all.

"Stayman" versus "Asking partner to bid a 4-card major" -- why are you more "absolutely certain" that your opponents have the same understanding of the word "major" than you are of "Stayman"?

Humpty Dumpty was wrong, words don't mean whatever you want them to mean.

#19 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-July-26, 19:23

View Postbarmar, on 2019-July-26, 19:12, said:

If you don't agree on the meaning of words, it's not possible to communicate at all.

"Stayman" versus "Asking partner to bid a 4-card major" -- why are you more "absolutely certain" that your opponents have the same understanding of the word "major" than you are of "Stayman"?

Humpty Dumpty was wrong, words don't mean whatever you want them to mean.

I have met players who (incorrectly in my world) say "Stayman" when it turns out that they really mean "Asking partner to bid a 5-card major". Follow up calls in the auction will clarify possible 4-card fits.

"Stayman" is a correct explanation when you are absolutely sure that your opponents will understand precisely what is meant.
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-27, 09:05

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-25, 13:07, said:

If the misstatement of strength/length is sufficiently gross and there is no credible alibi of genuine constructive intention then there is a penalty, and a fixed one too, albeir light.


How is this possible? Have the Laws of Bridge not been translated into Italian? I wonder why the WBF allows members which play some other game instead of bridge.
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