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What's your Brexit end-goal?

Poll: What's your Brexit end-goal? (8 member(s) have cast votes)

What should the end result of Brexit look like?

  1. Customs union (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Customs border between Ireland and NI (1 votes [12.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  3. Customs border between NI and Great Britain (2 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  4. Mixture of the above (e.g. depending on goods, or customs union for everything where UK follows EU regulations) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Revert article 50 (5 votes [62.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 62.50%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 07:06

As far as I can tell, none of the Tory leadership candidates have been asked what their ultimate goal for Brexit is. (If they have been, please correct me!) Anyway, let's do better than the UK media/politicians here and answer the important question.
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#2 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 09:40

I'm comfortable with the deal Mrs May negotiated. I'd prefer it if the Irish border could be resolved without a customs union, but I don't see that happening, so a customs union it is.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 11:18

Since the majority of the Northern Irish people want to remain in the EU, and religion is less prevalent as a dividing tool between the communities, and most of the Irish people respect the Good Friday agreement, it's about time Westminister seriously thought about letting-go of Northern Ireland as part of the Union.

There are plenty of European workers already both north and south of the border, and Ireland is as multicultural a country now as many parts of the UK. (I visited Eire recently and was surprised how many Europeans lived there.)

Obviously there will be dissenting voices in the Protestant community about such a merger, but having a border which still foments some ill-feeling between communities is not the way forward, I feel. Irish people are Irish whether they come from Eire or Northern Ireland, and its about time they put aside their religious differences and moved forward.

Many British people I know visit Eire, especially Dublin, and say it's a wonderful place to go to. The Irish people always treated me with warmth and genuine hospitality.
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#4 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 11:27

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-June-30, 11:18, said:

Since the majority of the Northern Irish people want to remain in the EU, and religion is less prevalent as a dividing tool between the communities, and most of the Irish people respect the Good Friday agreement, it's about time Westminister seriously thought about letting-go of Northern Ireland as part of the Union.

There is a material difference between pragmatic solutions and politically palatable solutions. I might agree with your analysis that NI and RoI can be treated as one contiguous country, still part of the EU. However, it is impossible for our politicians to even contemplate such a solution in the next few parliaments, let alone the present one with the wafer thin majority.
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 13:15

View Postshyams, on 2019-June-30, 11:27, said:

There is a material difference between pragmatic solutions and politically palatable solutions. I might agree with your analysis that NI and RoI can be treated as one contiguous country, still part of the EU. However, it is impossible for our politicians to even contemplate such a solution in the next few parliaments, let alone the present one with the wafer thin majority.


Impossible for a CONSERVATIVE government to contemplate.
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#6 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-July-10, 11:36

I don't really see why there cannot be a border between two states with different regulations and tariffs. Personally, I would prefer movement to be borderless, with checks and financial controls elsewhere, but I don't believe the EU will allow that, and will put up border controls.

Equally, I would be delighted if we became GB instead of UK, and that is much simpler, but I don't see it happening. No state just gives territory away. Perhaps the EU could make us an offer?
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#7 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-10, 14:01

View PostfromageGB, on 2019-July-10, 11:36, said:

I don't really see why there cannot be a border between two states with different regulations and tariffs.


There can be.

However, not if that border runs between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
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#8 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2019-July-13, 12:58

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-June-30, 11:18, said:

Since the majority of the Northern Irish people want to remain in the EU, and religion is less prevalent as a dividing tool between the communities, and most of the Irish people respect the Good Friday agreement, it's about time Westminister seriously thought about letting-go of Northern Ireland as part of the Union.

There are plenty of European workers already both north and south of the border, and Ireland is as multicultural a country now as many parts of the UK. (I visited Eire recently and was surprised how many Europeans lived there.)


I know what you mean but actually everyone who lives in Ireland is European :-)

Quote

Obviously there will be dissenting voices in the Protestant community about such a merger, but having a border which still foments some ill-feeling between communities is not the way forward, I feel. Irish people are Irish whether they come from Eire or Northern Ireland, and its about time they put aside their religious differences and moved forward.

Many British people I know visit Eire, especially Dublin, and say it's a wonderful place to go to. The Irish people always treated me with warmth and genuine hospitality.


What about Scotland? They are even more pro remain than Northern Ireland.
My crystal ball says 31.10. some kind of Brexit, then Scotland and Northern Irland rebel and soon UK will have the choice between falling apart and reapplying for EU membership.

I like every part of the Divided Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland and I simply feel sorry for my friends there, whatever the outcome of Brexit.
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#9 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-July-14, 10:40

Independence rebellions have been suppressed in many countries, and I'm sure they can be in Scotland and N.I.
(I'd let N.I. go and keep Scotland :) )
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-July-17, 06:58

Ok, thanks everyone for voting.
Now, can someone explain to me the conservative government's position on this? All Tory leadership candidates seem to be against a customs union; the EU won't accept a customs border between Ireland and NI; and in the backstop negotiations, the government essentially decided to prefer a customs union (I know it's quite a bit more complicated, but too large extent that is what it is) over a customs border between NI and Great Britain.

Is the goal to eventually accede to a customs border between NI and GB, but not say so explicitly as long as possible, only after the process has moved far enough that those opposed to it can no longer stop Brexit?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-17, 08:04

I'm not sure of the goals. I think they are hoping a technological soft customs border solution arrives before they have to implement it at the end of the negociation period, but not sure what plan B is or if they have one.
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#12 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-July-17, 11:09

I don't think the current government's position is relevant. We are about to get a new government and its position will be markedly different. What that will really be, we have no way of knowing until Oct 31st, when opposing bluffs are exposed or win through. As far as I understand, plan A is a temporary tariff continuation agreed with the EU until long term arrangements can be agreed; plan B is WTO.

The EU have not really said it won't accept a customs border, as I have read that Eire is planning controls on the border if plan B materialises. Surely the EU will not want an open border?
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#13 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-July-17, 12:02

fromage you are answering a different question. I want to know what the long-term end goal is, not the pseudo-bluffs Johnson et al are making about the nearer future. And yes, by asking about the current government I meant to ask what it will want to do once Johnson is it's PM.
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-18, 05:30

View Postcherdano, on 2019-July-17, 06:58, said:

Is the goal to eventually accede to a customs border between NI and GB, but not say so explicitly as long as possible, only after the process has moved far enough that those opposed to it can no longer stop Brexit?


https://www.theguard...b2C4U2TPEQMGwo8

When you have feelings like this around, and a customs border between NI/GB is seen as the first step to a united Ireland, it's going to be messy.
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 15:03

Speaking of Northern Ireland, I am a little confused.
It seems obvious that Brexit would make reunification (of Republic of Ireland with NI) more likely.

Yet Sinn Fein opposes Brexit. And the DUP supports Brexit. At least there is a logic to Sinn Fein's position, but apparently the DUP is still under the illusion that NI can be treated identically to the rest of the UK in the post-Brexit UK-EU relations.

Who is deluded here, is it me or the DUP?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 17:43

View Postcherdano, on 2019-August-02, 15:03, said:

Speaking of Northern Ireland, I am a little confused.
It seems obvious that Brexit would make reunification (of Republic of Ireland with NI) more likely.

Yet Sinn Fein opposes Brexit. And the DUP supports Brexit. At least there is a logic to Sinn Fein's position, but apparently the DUP is still under the illusion that NI can be treated identically to the rest of the UK in the post-Brexit UK-EU relations.

Who is deluded here, is it me or the DUP?


The DUP are less than sane, they want incompatible things. Biggest failing among Theresa May's many huge failures is not getting the DUP in a room early in the process and asking them to spell out what they actually want, then pointing out that's impossible and why, and asking them what they want MOST.
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#17 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 06:01

Now it is me that is a little confused. I see no mention anywhere of anyone saying Brexit makes a united Ireland more likely : I think the opposite. A single Ireland is more likely when there is the current situation of no distinction between north and south, leading perhaps to a vote in the future for fusion, as probably thought by Sinn Fein. A foot in the door can lead to the door opening. Conversely, Brexit will likely cause the EU to create a border, and separation will harden.

Where is the "illusion" that NI is part of the UK? Again, that seems like a fact to me. Apart from minor controls released to peripheral regional assemblies, it will be governed by UK laws and UK trade agreements, have the same social services and health arrangements.

Longer term things will change. Initially the UK will be taking exports from Ireland duty free, but if the UE does not reciprocate and starts taxing ours, then we should and probably will follow suit. Maybe Ireland would leave the EU and have its own Eirexit so it can make its own trade arrangements.
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