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SAYC 1D-1NT; 2NT

#1 User is offline   Portello 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 09:37

When playing SAYC how do you take:

1D-1NT; 2NT
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#2 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 10:01

Stoically B-)

It's one of those bids where people do not always follow the system. I think in SA it should be natural, so showing strength between a strong 1NT and 2NT, non-forcing although if you pass you will have some explaining to do.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 12:42

Given that SAYC is 5M, partner could well have a 4441 hand that he has opened 1 with about 15-16+ points. As responder hasn't bid a major there's no 4-4 major suit fit, so the only forward move that opener can make is to suggest he has more than a minimum is to bid 2NT.

The exact parameters are obviously down to partnership agreement.
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 14:04

Iĺd say an ugly balanced 18 that you regret not opening 1NT (KQx KQxx KJx KJx), or a 5422 (with a 4-cd M), 5531 or 4441 worth 16-18.

You express a strong desire to play a game but allow partner with a (sub)minimal answer to pass.
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#5 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 05:31

Sirs, the 1NT response is NORMALLY 6-10,the 2NT bid by opener shows a balanced 18/19 hand showing a desire to play 3NT if responder has 8+ HCP.Responder has already denied a 4 card major.With 6 HCP responder passes as also with a flat 3334 and 6/7 HCP.With say a 3326 hand he may sign of in 3C(xxx-xx-xx-KQ10XXX).With 8+ he will bid 3NT.Kiondly correct me as I am not that expert(?) in SAYC.Opener very rarely may have 4441 hand as suggested.But there is no reason to imagine so every time this sequence occurs.
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#6 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 05:40

duplicate deleted..
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 06:49

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-June-30, 05:31, said:

Sirs, the 1NT response is NORMALLY 6-10,the 2NT bid by opener shows a balanced 18/19 hand showing a desire to play 3NT if responder has 8+ HCP.Responder has already denied a 4 card major.With 6 HCP responder passes as also with a flat 3334 and 6/7 HCP.With say a 3326 hand he may sign of in 3C(xxx-xx-xx-KQ10XXX).With 8+ he will bid 3NT.Kiondly correct me as I am not that expert(?) in SAYC.Opener very rarely may have 4441 hand as suggested.But there is no reason to imagine so every time this sequence occurs.


What do you do with a 3451 hand and invitational values ?
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#8 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 10:56

View PostPortello, on 2019-June-29, 09:37, said:

When playing SAYC how do you take:

1D-1NT; 2NT


Invite. A great 17 that you decided to upgrade to 18, or else a bad-to-middling 18. With a great 18 or any 19, I bid 3NT. Partner shouldn't bid 1NT over 1m with a 4-5 count. 1M over 1m, sometimes yes; not 1NT.
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#9 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 10:57

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-30, 06:49, said:

What do you do with a 3451 hand and invitational values ?


Bid 2M.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 13:01

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-June-30, 10:57, said:

Bid 2M.


Not a SAYC player, but why ? partner has effectively bid clubs, and denied 4 so you are now very no-trumpy.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 16:14

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-30, 13:01, said:

Not a SAYC player, but why ? partner has effectively bid clubs, and denied 4 so you are now very no-trumpy.

Yes, but by bidding 2 you don't show the 18 points you don't have, and you do show the 5th diamond. If partner now bids 3 you knows he has six of them (since you didn't show a balanced hand) so you can pass without too many nerves. Partner will often have three diamonds in which case 3 may be a better contract than 2NT.

4441 is a problem though, but SAYC doesn't claim to be water-tight. I think that with 4441 you just have to tell the smallest lie. Maybe pass with 16 points and bid 2NT with 17. Sometimes rebid 2 with a chunky diamond suit, or open 1NT with a club honour.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#12 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 21:42

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-30, 13:01, said:

Not a SAYC player, but why ? partner has effectively bid clubs, and denied 4 so you are now very no-trumpy.


It depends on the hand. With xxx AKQx AKJxx x, I think you want to bid 2H. 4H could easily be your best spot (or maybe 5D). With KQx Kxxx AQJxx K, I would bid 2NT. These are a bit extreme, but you get the idea.

Incidentally, although it isn't "SAYC," most USA players play inverted minors. In that case, 1NT doesn't necessarily show many clubs. Your partner could easily be 3343 (in SAYC, too) or 3352. With the 3352 hand and an 8-9 count, partner generally starts with 1NT and then hops out of the bushes with 3D later on if the opponents bid a major. Otherwise, the 3D preempt covers much too wide a range for constructive bidding.

Cheers,
Mike
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-01, 02:09

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-June-30, 21:42, said:

It depends on the hand. With xxx AKQx AKJxx x, I think you want to bid 2H. 4H could easily be your best spot (or maybe 5D). With KQx Kxxx AQJxx K, I would bid 2NT. These are a bit extreme, but you get the idea.

Incidentally, although it isn't "SAYC," most USA players play inverted minors. In that case, 1NT doesn't necessarily show many clubs. Your partner could easily be 3343 (in SAYC, too) or 3352. With the 3352 hand and an 8-9 count, partner generally starts with 1NT and then hops out of the bushes with 3D later on if the opponents bid a major. Otherwise, the 3D preempt covers much too wide a range for constructive bidding.

Cheers,
Mike


We split the 3 preempt between 2N and 3, is this not common in the US ? I was more concerned about bidding 2 on AKx, AKJx, Jxxxx, x and playing a really awful 3 when I want to be in NT.
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-July-01, 04:04

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-30, 06:49, said:

What do you do with a 3451 hand and invitational values ?

Sir, it depends upon the (1) VALUE of each honour card.(2) How good is the 5 card side suit,t (3)the number of losers. (4)the nature of support which may start from xxx and may go all the way upto AKQ. Accordingly with a limited hand we just lraise to 2M.(shows 9 losers) and raise to 3M (With 8 losers).WE DO NOT USE BERGEN RAISES AS WE HATE THEM. We play SST and LST after 1M-2M and bid game with 6 losers*(limited opening with 6 losers) when it is 1M-3M.(We do not use raise to 3M for fancy/unwarranted preemptive purpose ) ..Believe us, we have excellent results ,so far.at all levels using these treatments.The fact remains that the OP SPECIFICALLY asked for the sequence 1D--1NT--2NT. THANX.
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-July-01, 04:46

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-July-01, 04:04, said:

The fact remains that the OP SPECIFICALLY asked for the sequence 1M--1NT--2NT. THANX.


No they didn't, they asked about 1-1N-2N
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#16 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-July-01, 06:38

[quote name='Cyberyeti' timestamp='1561978003' post='977119']
No they didn't, they asked about 1-1N-2N
Sirs am sorry this post of mine was for another post 1M--1NT--2NT. MY oversight that I put it up in this column.
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#17 User is offline   Portello 

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Posted 2019-July-01, 06:43

The reason why I asked this is that I personally treat it as 18-19 NT, but many players at BBO seam be of the opinion that one should bid 3NT with that type of hand.
I can't find any sourse of SAYC online that explain this part of the bidding. Please point me to a good online source of (standard full) SAYC if you can.

Would you treat 1M-1NT; 2NT any different. I wouldn't!
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#18 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-July-03, 17:44

View Postmiamijd, on 2019-June-30, 21:42, said:

Incidentally, although it isn't "SAYC," most USA players play inverted minors


Perhaps your experience differs, but in my experience most players who play *2/1* play inverted minors. Most who claim to play SAYC or "Standard American" don't.

RuflRabbit
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