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Try this Bidding question

#1 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-27, 21:37

Club game, MPs, average field.

Please provide possible followup actions to normal responses from partner. Assume the opps will pass for now, I will revisit this for actions involving further competition.
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-June-27, 23:58

3C now.

If partner rebids 3H, 3S (not sure it guarantees a real suit, though, as it is the only way to convey the message D are open from my side). You should now safely pass if partner bids 3NT. Also 4S, probably you should sit for it too (partner will have 4 if they donít stop D, donít repeat H and donít take prťfťrence to C). If partner repeats H again, it is clearly a good 6 or 7-cd suit. Stronger hand than a direct 4H I would tend to say. It could be easier (MP scoring) to leave it in rather than take it out to 5C. But in all cases, we are likely to lack some material to go higher than game. And MP advises caution.

If partner bids 3S or fits 4C, letís go and dream high. But small D doubleton is a bit worrying [EDITED - had seen D wrong]

If partner bids 3D, I believe unless he has some special hand, it is almost the worst call (pls help me). 3S obvious then, but contrary to the 1st sequence, there could be merits to reach 5C rather than 4M or 3NT that look a bit shaky.
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 02:51

HardVector 'Club game, MPs, average field. Please provide possible followup actions to normal responses from partner. Assume the opps will pass for now, I will revisit this for actions involving further competition.
++++++++++++++++++
Over RHO's 2 I rank
1. 3 = NAT F1 (The only bid that I would consider at the table)
2. Double = NEG But loses s, our best asset.
3. 3 = UCB But pre-empts partner who will presume support.

-- After 3/3, I would rebid 3.
-- Over 3N, I might pass.
-- I would raise 3 to 4 (underbid but worried about ).

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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 04:46

There are some potentially negative features in this hand - particularly the void in partner's suit, but also the small doubleton in opps suit and the lack of intermediaries etc in Spades. But you can't do less than bid 3 now - on a good day partner has a fit!

I bid 3 over a red suit response and pass 3NT.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 06:10

View Postnige1, on 2019-June-28, 02:51, said:

1. 3 = NAT F1 (The only bid that I would consider at the table)
2. Double = NEG But loses s, our best asset.


At the table I would consider the negative double, which tells the story about and and can hardly be based on less than 5-card given level and vulnerability.
But I too would settle for 3.
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 06:21

View Postpescetom, on 2019-June-28, 06:10, said:

At the table I would consider the negative double, which tells the story about and and can hardly be based on less than 5-card given level and vulnerability.
But I too would settle for 3.


The problem with X is that partner is going to undervalue something like xx, AKQJx, Axx, xxx which is great opposite 3 but less so opposite a double. Of course X can be a 4234 opening hand and doesn't require 5 clubs.
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#7 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 07:23

I feel 3 is obvious as the first action. A negative dbl is not an action I would seriously consider.

The interesting problem is after partner's next bid. I agree with Nigel that I would bid 3 over 3 or 3.

View Postnige1, on 2019-June-28, 02:51, said:

-- After 3/3, I would rebid 3.
-- Over 3N, I might pass.
-- I would raise 3 to 4 (underbid but worried about .

If partner bids 3, I am sorely tempted to raise to 5. Partner should interpret this as "bid slam if we don't have two losers in their suit, diamonds"

If partner bids 3NT instead, I would pass at MPs.
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#8 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 08:50

Something to consider: Kx xxxxx Axx xxx has a shot at 6c and Kx Axxxx Axx xxx just about guarantees it. That 11 points. On the flip side; Qxx KQJxx KJx xx screams 3nt. Also, KQxx Axxxx Kx xx make 6s easily (or 6n on a good day) IF partner plays it.



If you choose to double:


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#9 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 10:48

I am going to dbl first I can then just bid clubs a lot of times. Over 2nt I will bid 3. With 4 next.
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#10 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 20:34

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-27, 21:37, said:

Club game, MPs, average field.

Please provide possible followup actions to normal responses from partner. Assume the opps will pass for now, I will revisit this for actions involving further competition.


Unless you are an internet weenie who has a specialized bid for a game force 7 club, 4 spade, heart void hand, who is seriously going to bid anything other than 3? Sometimes you can plan a prepared bid to accommodate expected responses. This is not one of those hands.
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 20:56

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-27, 21:37, said:

Club game, MPs, average field.

Please provide possible followup actions to normal responses from partner. Assume the opps will pass for now, I will revisit this for actions involving further competition.


I'm also in the 3 camp and with those who would bid 3 over a red suit response. 3 shows opening values and 5+ .

For those who would double because you hold 4 , how do you continue over a 2 level red suit response by partner? If you continue 3 , partner will think maybe you have something like Qxx xx x AKJ10xxx or similar.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 21:00

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-28, 08:50, said:


If you choose to double:




3 NT, what else?
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#13 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 16:37

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-June-28, 21:00, said:

3 NT, what else?

And how happy would you be when 3n made 4 and 7c was cold?
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#14 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 20:31

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-29, 16:37, said:

And how happy would you be when 3n made 4 and 7c was cold?


If 7 is cold, then why are doubling 2 in the first place? Shouldn't you be bidding first?

Besides you can't know what's in partner's hand. Maybe, the hand only makes 5 and 3 NT makes more than 3. Whoops!!

One long gone real "expert" player I knew used to say "Bid what you've got." It's sage bidding advice. Trying to make an opening hand with a strong 7 card suit fit into a negative double because you have a 4 card isn't doing that. How are you ever going to convince partner that a slam, let alone a grand slam, is possible after negative doubling? Chances are, you'll never do it. The double makes it extremely difficult for partner to envision your hand. Good bidding is a matter pf partners working together to find the best contracts. When partner can envision what your hand looks like, partner may be able to see that the cards in their hand mesh well and slam could be on. Then you'll be in position to bid to slams when they're there.
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#15 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 14:29

Note the question I put earlier. There is room for a lot of possibilities here. Partner with the perfect hand could make 7. To make 6, partner just needs the right 11. With just 7 points, 6 is possible, but not assured. I can also construct several hands in which even 5c doesn't make and you should play in 3n. If you bid 3c and partner bids 3n, what do you do? This is the question I put in the very first post in this thread, how are you going to constructively bid this to get to the right spot. Nobody so far has come up with anything that is anything but a guess. Most are bidding 3c and passing a 3n rebid from partner. But if they have Kx Axxxx AQx xxx aren't they going to bid 3n?
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-30, 15:01

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-30, 14:29, said:

Note the question I put earlier. There is room for a lot of possibilities here. Partner with the perfect hand could make 7. To make 6, partner just needs the right 11. With just 7 points, 6 is possible, but not assured. I can also construct several hands in which even 5c doesn't make and you should play in 3n. If you bid 3c and partner bids 3n, what do you do? This is the question I put in the very first post in this thread, how are you going to constructively bid this to get to the right spot. Nobody so far has come up with anything that is anything but a guess. Most are bidding 3c and passing a 3n rebid from partner. But if they have Kx Axxxx AQx xxx aren't they going to bid 3n?


I would have the slight advantage that partner can't have many of your example hands because he opened 1N on them, I would probably bid 3 and then 4 (over which 4 would ask aces and 4N would be to play).
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#17 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-July-02, 08:58

negative x

If opener does NOT have a spade fit we can concentrate on clubs for slam purposes. If we bid 3c whatever follows might all too easily become murky. What would 3s mean over 3c? 4 spades maybe a spade stop no dia stop w/o 6 hearts?. Even 2n leaves us in a pickle since we will have no way to easily discover if the dia stop is QJx or Axx or Kxx a HUGE difference when thinking about slam especially clubs from our side. The x could yield a huge side benefit of p bidding 3c making slam exploration hugely safer since if p does have something like Kx of diamonds it is guarded against the opening lead.

If perchance partner bids 2n over our x I will continue with 3d and bid 4c (slam try) over the almost inevitable 3n. If p bids 3n I have an easy 4c bid slam try.
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#18 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-July-04, 18:16

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-30, 15:01, said:

I would have the slight advantage that partner can't have many of your example hands because he opened 1N on them, I would probably bid 3 and then 4 (over which 4 would ask aces and 4N would be to play).

I already demonstrated the the right 7 count has a shot, and the right 11 count is cold for 6. You don't need a 1nt opener to be considering a slam.

After thinking about this for quite awhile, I still consider the negative double to be superior to a 3c bid. There are 2 negative bids that partner can make, 2h and 2n. 2s, 3c and 3d should get you excited and on the right track fairly easily.

After 2h, 3c should be to play opposite a min, but invitational to 3n. So if partner bids 2h, you are going to have to bid 3d (cuebid) and pass 3n if partner bids it, and bid 4c (invitational to 5c) if they don't. Keep in mind, that while the 6 and 7 levels are in play, the 3 and 4 levels may be the limit with the wrong hands.

It's different if partner bids 2n, however. Now when you bid 3d, what are you saying? Bid 3n with a diamond stopper? Partner has already shown that. You have a good hand with spades? If you had more than 4 you would have bid them already. You have heart support? You wouldn't have messed around with the negative double in the first place. I think a 3d bid here should show something like the hand I've shown. 4 spades, a good 6+ card holding in the other minor and interesting in exploring slam if partner likes the minor. If you just had 4 or 5 cards in the minor, you would probably just settle for 3n here, so the cuebid should show something more distributional.

I haven't read this anywhere, just musing and inserting my 2 cents worth (or appropriate denomination in the European currency system).
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#19 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-July-04, 21:52

3C first. Passing partner's 3NT reply is probably the percentage action at MPs (unless we can still stop in 4NT should we continue with 4C, where it might be worth telling partner that you do have a SI hand for clubs).

ahydra
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#20 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-July-05, 14:59

View PostHardVector, on 2019-July-04, 18:16, said:

I already demonstrated the the right 7 count has a shot, and the right 11 count is cold for 6. You don't need a 1nt opener to be considering a slam.

After thinking about this for quite awhile, I still consider the negative double to be superior to a 3c bid. There are 2 negative bids that partner can make, 2h and 2n. 2s, 3c and 3d should get you excited and on the right track fairly easily.

After 2h, 3c should be to play opposite a min, but invitational to 3n. So if partner bids 2h, you are going to have to bid 3d (cuebid) and pass 3n if partner bids it, and bid 4c (invitational to 5c) if they don't. Keep in mind, that while the 6 and 7 levels are in play, the 3 and 4 levels may be the limit with the wrong hands.

It's different if partner bids 2n, however. Now when you bid 3d, what are you saying? Bid 3n with a diamond stopper? Partner has already shown that. You have a good hand with spades? If you had more than 4 you would have bid them already. You have heart support? You wouldn't have messed around with the negative double in the first place. I think a 3d bid here should show something like the hand I've shown. 4 spades, a good 6+ card holding in the other minor and interesting in exploring slam if partner likes the minor. If you just had 4 or 5 cards in the minor, you would probably just settle for 3n here, so the cuebid should show something more distributional.

I haven't read this anywhere, just musing and inserting my 2 cents worth (or appropriate denomination in the European currency system).

The idea of making a negative double makes me ill. Partner will almost always bid 2H (especially if 2H is the default bid when unable to make another descriptive call, which is a common treatment).

Now what? 3C is very much non-forcing and isn't even invitational. It is how one would bid with, say, KQxx x xx KJ10xxx as one simple example.

Meanwhile, as it happens you have a full opener (yes, I am aware of the auction) and a distributional hand with a long, strong suit. How does one involve partner in the auction? By bidding our hand.

3C.

Now, over 3H, we have a trivial 3S, showing, drum roll please, 4+ spades, longer clubs, and an opening hand. While this is still short of completely describing our hand, it is a heck of a lot more accurate than is doubling.

Over 3N, we have to pass. We can hope clubs will run, or that partner has 2 diamond stops....say an innocuous hand such as Qxx AJxxx AQx xx (at mps, we have an interesting issue on a spade lead, which is the unbid suit, but at imps, we'd pop the Ace and lead the club Jack.)

If partner were to bid 3D, which would astound me....I bid 3S anyway, to see why partner cuebid.

Partner is unlikely to raise clubs, but if he does, I can bid 4S, denying a diamond control, and abide by 5C if that's then his choice.....and hope for something like Kx AQJxx xx Qxxx.
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